You know I love it when any of CCL’s Guest Butches chime in 
. Well here’s a response from Guest Butch Raye.
Hey Martini-gurl,
I decided to form this response to Sasha’s straight girl blog as a full on blog for two reasons: First I knew it would be long winded, therefore did not need to be in comment format. And secondly, I am sure you were not the only person who questioned that very same comment. So here I am ladies, let the debate commence because I know some of you will not agree. (I would just like to preface this by saying thank you for your opinion… but you are wrong and I am right! lol) I would also just like to let you know that yes my comment was biased and no you didn’t have too much coffee!
This blog is a general statement and BY NO MEANS meant to cover all women in all situations. But just like there are stereotypes due to something that is true 99% of the time, this blog is mostly true for a reason. I agree that what I am saying is not true in EVERY single case because nothing is that consistent or perfect. But in my opinion, (and my experience nine times out of ten) straight women who crush on gay women for the sake of a relationship and not just curious sex are looking for the same qualities in a woman that they are looking for in a man but can’t find.
Whether this is your individual case or not, is of no relevance in what I am trying to say to the majority of straight women who find themselves attracted to other women for the sake of relationships…. especially other moms. Now on occasion you will find a case like mine where there was an otherwise butch woman who played the straight life and eventually comes out as gay and her demeanor and appearance changes along with her gradual coming out metamorphosis. But for the most part, women who leave (otherwise happy) relationships with men are more successful in relationships with a butch (whether they pursue/realize it or not) simply because of the complimentary personalities of the partners.
A femme/femme relationship can function just like a butch/butch relationship can appear to function happily as such. But under the facade of butch/butch, femme/femme, there is always a more dominant personality and a more submissive one. You can’t have all chiefs and no indians. This is not to say that all femmes are submissive all the time or that all butchies are dominant all the time. That is why femme/femme and butch/butch relationships can occur and indeed thrive. But there has to be a difference of personalities in order for the relationship to be successful. If both of you are in constant competition with one another on the same qualities or relationship functions, then the relationship will always suffer.
I know this from experience. You can’t both be the pilot in an airplane. Someone has to be the pilot and someone has to be the navigator. And just like the navigator/co-pilot must be able to fly in case the pilot becomes unable to perform, so also does one person in a relationship sometimes take up the roles and duties of the other when that person is not able to do them. In healthy relationships this is how things work. And while many lesbians will go militant and feminist on me for saying so, I calls ‘em as I sees ‘em. Anyone can have a fling with anyone short term. I always encourage experimenting if you are single and newly out, to find out what type of lesbian you really are.
But MOST of the time, formerly straight (and otherwise femme) women who enjoyed or functioned well in relationships with men will mesh better with butchies. Because we have many masculine traits that not only allow us to tackle mechanical problems, they also allow us to USUALLY be more complimentary to the nature of most straight women (especially soccer moms) who are used to playing the traditionally female roles with men.
Hate on me for saying it if you want to but that is what the butch/femme dynamic is all about. It is about the different aspects of female strength which can be displayed in all women depending upon their respective personalities and how they compliment each other. And the majority of the time (again read not ALL the time) the strengths of a butch woman compliment the strengths of a straight woman (or femme lesbian) in a relationship. We have needs and wants that are very complimentary and usually butch women’s needs do not conflict with the needs of the straight (or femme) woman. And while you might think you wanna marry your shopping girlfriend who thinks, dresses and acts just like you, the truth is that eventually that relationship will clash in terms of fulfilling needs & wants. It isn’t about gender or sexual orientation, it is about personality types. Pay attention to the details of it and it is almost always true. Idealistically we would all just be able to morph into the perfect partner at any and all times under all circumstances and personalities, but the reality of it is that it just ain’t so.
I need to read this again, to be more clear of what you are trying to say. But, right off… I am getting that your implication is that a lesbian that identifies as a femme can be compared to a straight woman. Am I correct?
You are making a direct, positive correlation between a femme lesbian and a straight woman?
Interesting.
I have a pocket full of change to throw in. I’ll be back.
hahaha I knew you would El… you never disappoint me.
I think it is dangerous to put people in boxes and to generalize based on stereotypes.
While I enjoy parts of the butch/femme dynamic in relationships, I have to say that that the generalizations and assumptions made in this blog can put lesbians back… oh… twenty years.
I think it is very wrong to assume that because one is ultra feminine, she needs or even desires to be taken care of. EVEN in a heterosexual relationship. My mother was never taken care of nor did she desire that role. Do I think that there is anything wrong with a woman who does? No.
Your comparison of the formerly straight soccer mom, who is now a femme lesbian struck a chord with me. Perhaps because that can easily describe me if you are an onlooker and don’t really know me.
First of all, I do not consider myself “formerly straight.” I’ve always been gay and have always KNOWN I was gay, but have recently been able to look fear in the face, and myself in the mirror, and leave the lie I was living. Secondly, I don’t consider myself a femme lesbian. I think that may be a label that others can easily assign me; however, when I seek the definition of what a butch lesbian is… I feel that label would better fit me. Except, you know… the whole dress, heels, long hair bullshit.
Is that what defines butches and femmes? How we look? Or if we can “pass” or not? Or if we’ve been able to sustain a heterosexual marriage for any number of years? Raye, then, by those standards… you might be considered a femme as well at one point. But you are not. Clearly. You know who you are. As do I.
As do a lot of other straight or gay women who are married to men or partnered with women.
As women, we should be working towards unifying ourselves, not dividing. I do like your pilot/co-pilot analogy. It does take two make any relationship work. I really don’t think anyone needs to be “in charge” but rather there should be an equity of involvement in the relationship. So often, in a hetero relationship this is not the case. (I tried to blog about this on my blog… when I was considering gay marriage vs. straight marriage.)
If I look at my relationship with S, I think that I take care of her. I like taking care of her. I want to take care of her. I don’t WANT her to have to do anything. I know she wants to take care of me as well, but for whatever issues and reasons I have, I can’t seem to let anyone (not just her) really do this for me. I NEED to.
Does that make me the butch? Her the femme? She’s never going to wear a dress. And I never want her to. Ever.
In bed, again, I’m much more satisfied to top her, to fuck her, to make her cum, to satisfy all of her needs. But I know she needs to be able to do the same for me, and so I have to let her. This has been a challenge for me in previous relationships, even in my hetero one(s). But with S… it’s working better, to allow myself to be pleased.
Raye, you give advice to “find out what kind of lesbian you are” to those that are newly coming out… some of us just don’t fit neatly into the pre-labeled boxes.
Some of us “formerly straight soccer moms” are really fucking glad to be free from those “traditional roles” we had to play with our men.
I feel as if I am rambling now and I’ve been interrupted a million times. I’ll stop here. But I’m glad that this topic is being discussed right now, it’s been on my mind lately (clearly)…
El, while I can agree with you on your specifics in certain circumstances, this was indeed as you stated a post about generalization and for the majority. Yes I was married to a man but it was not a successful relationship, in fact it was pretty ugly at times. I am talking about women who go from otherwise reasonable relationships with men and not those who always knew they were gay like you or me. I think the tricky part in all of this is figuring out your definition of a butch and your definition of a femme. Also I take issue with the statement that simply because a person would choose to be a stay at home mom/wifey is setting anyone back 20 years. I know plenty of stay at home moms who agree with me there. What would send us back 20 years is if women had no choice but to be so. But the women who want this choice should not be seen as something less feminist simply because this is what makes them happy. I am not talking about forced roles here. I am talking about choices. I think you are an awesome mom and a generally badass chick. Do I think you are a soccer mom… no not really. I see you as more on my spectrum of lesbians. And I do not believe anything is black/white but I do believe you lean one way or the other and not necessarily just by your appearance. No one is trying to say ALL women who come out of straight relationships are femmes. All I was saying is that 90% of the time, compatibility is ignored based upon a preconceived idea of sexual attraction and this is why a lot of “formerly straight” women can become very frustrated because they are not finding anyone compatible for a relationship. You and S. mesh well based upon opposite yet complimentary personality traits. All I was saying is that the majority of the time, those opposite personality traits are found in butch/femme because the differences are more clearly defined and needs/wants are not conflicting due to both partners needing the same things without being able to meet them because both are always expecting the same things. Rarely do you find relationships where two people of the same personality types are able to meet each other’s needs. It usually ends up in war.
i completely agree with El. I, personally, find your generalization to be borderline offensive. Because this is the relationship style/archetype that works for YOU, that does not mean it is the only archetype that works for everyone else.
My partner and I are friends, team mates, co-captains (insert whatever metaphor you like) in most everything we do. Literally. Obviously there is give and take in which projects we lead but, in general, if there is a job to be done, we are doing it together. We are complete best friends who hike together, shop together, camp together, have spa days together and play sports together. (and we’ve been through 8 at-times-very-difficult-but-mostly-fantastic years together so I feel very confident and strong in our relationship with each other) I cannot STAND the idea that one of us should be the masculine while the other more femme to survive. That is an incredible assumption and equivalent to someone saying “oh.. you’re just gay because you haven’t had a real man show you what it’s all about”
Taking care of one another does not have to be in the sense of ‘i clean for you if you change the oil for me’. Taking care of one another is meeting each other’s needs.. and not everyone’s needs are what you say.
“Butch/femme” might work for you.. and that’s fantastic.. that’s great even. but i have met a lot of people (not just one or two) who do not subscribe to that. Personally, i feel boiling your relationship down to a simple dynamic is cheapening it a bit – like you wouldn’t love or be attracted to that person if they dressed or appeared different. I realize appearance and presence are both important to attraction but are they everything? Do you love your girlfriend or the role they play in your life?
I’ve said this before and I’ll continue to say it.. one of the most beautiful parts of coming out was to NOT have to live within the strict, predetermined rules and guidelines of who i should be, how i should act and who i should love. and i vow.. to never.. EVER put those constraints on anyone else for the rest of my life.
I agree with El completely, you took the words right out of my mouth.
“But MOST of the time, formerly straight (and otherwise femme) women who enjoyed or functioned well in relationships with men will mesh better with butchies.”??
It gets rather exhausting to be put in boxes like this. I thought I got away from all this when I stopped dating men. I am not formerly straight, I have always been gay. I am not femme but technically, yes I suppose I look femme. But why does any of this matter?
Shouldnt we be trying to break these stereotypes instead of actively playing into them?
Raye, I understand the generalizations you were making. That is my issue. I was just using my situation to point out certain examples of circumstances where the boxes and lables for the “formerly straight” lesbian don’t fit. I was also taking issue with the correlation between “formerly straight” and “femme lesbian”.
Anyway, I think you misunderstood. I don’t think that anyone who wants to stay home and be the executive CEO (aka housewife) is setting women back 20 years. I meant that trying to put us femmes (or the lezzies that wear the heels) in the boxes doesn’t always work. And to imply a relationship will work better because we are “used to” being taken care of… is the part that I believe is sexist.
again… if you read what I wrote, you will see that I was not referring to outer appearances. I was referring to roles played by partners. Everyone has a role to play in any relationship. You cannot get away from that no matter how hard you try. Appearance is irrelevant to this argument. Just because you look femme does not mean you ARE femme and just because you look butch does not mean you ARE butch.
The statement “But MOST of the time, formerly straight (and otherwise femme) women who enjoyed or functioned well in relationships with men will mesh better with butchies.” was not meant to be read that all formerly straight women are femme nor was it intended to equate femme lesbians to straight women. It was meant to say that if they were formerly in a straight relationship where they played a feminine role and were otherwise satisfied as the more feminine partner then they would be likely to be more satisfied in a partnership with a butchie, not because they need to be taken care of, but because of opposite personality traits. You are totally missing the point of the post.
“find your generalization to be borderline offensive.”
Heh heh heh, this is exactly why I like reading Raye blogs.
Sometimes it’s harsh and pretty much always the opposite of PC, but Raye doesn’t usually put disclaimers and caveats to explain herself in her writings. She’s trying pretty damn hard to avoid this exact argument, only to have those portions where she does be overlooked or ignored.
I’m neither femme nor butch and couldn’t define what “kind” of lesbian I am for anyone right now, but I look at the categories as sort of a loose and imperfect system of convenience. Yeah, it can be drastically improved and it probably will as it evolves, but that’s going to have to be something of a slow organic process.
“I realize appearance and presence are both important to attraction but are they everything?”
They’re not everything but they’re often way more important than most of us really want to admit. Denying that reality caused me personally a fuckton of grief when I was trudging through half my life trying to be straight.
Do you want to know what really turns me off about men (in keeping in the spirit of making more sweeping over-generalizations)?
They’re pasty, they’re pudgy, and they’re hairy.
Ok, I say this because I spent almost half of my life dating them, only to lose interest after the initial lovey-dovey fresh-and-new phase wore off, and all the wonderful talents and great intellectual conversations in the world couldn’t reignite my interest in them. Oh, I loved them, in the sense that I cared for these people with whom I’d shared much space and time and mutual interest, but when it boils down to being unable to stomach fucking them anymore, things were pretty much done.
And of course, there is a lot more nuance and complication to it all than just that, and I assure you I am not as shallow as a kiddie pool. I’m just owning up to a facet of life, attractions, and relationships that we all know is extremely obvious, but we all like to think that we personally are above it…and I’m just saying that no, I’m not.
General reply: I agree with the sentiment that *relationships* require a more dominant partner and a more submissive partner. What I disagree with is where a straight woman fits in this role. This generalization for successful relationships is not sex-specific. Of all the hetero relationships I know, the woman is almost always the more dominant one. With this in mind, I don’t feel that a straight woman would automatically seek to be the co-pilot in a homo relationship. The other important thing is mutual respect, dominance doesn’t mean overbearing, nor does submissive mean weak in the context of a relationship.
Specific reply:
“But just like there are stereotypes due to something that is true 99% of the time, this blog is mostly true for a reason.”
Stereotypes are not based on something that is true 99 percent of the time, they are based on something that has been seen and then widely (and often falsely) regarded as fact. The stereotypical lesbian is a very butch woman (negates the femmes and everyone inbetween); the stereotypical man is tall, muscular, and dominant (negating everyone who wants to get their nerd on, etc.), the stereotypical black is loud, dumb, and ugly. ETC. Stereotypes aren’t something to rely on besides the odd joke.
I think this is a “to each his own” kind of debate… or should that be her own?
First of all, I’m a butch-lovin’ femme; I kind of feel like I should introduce myself as such before tossing my proverbial scarf into the ring. Yes, I said scarf, not hat. I’m that kind of femme.
I take a lot of pride in my butch-femme relationship, and no, I don’t feel the labels to be confining or heteronorming or any of that nonsense. And frankly, it is nonsense. Because people who chose to identify as such are exercising a conscious choice. It’s an intentional gender performance, not an aping of straight behavior.
I take a lot of pride, as well, in my femme identity as intentional gender performance. I do not categorize other people with my labels; I allow them to choose their own.
With all of that being said, I do think that there is something to what you’ve written here. Politically correct or not, all relationships involve some yin-yang, if you will. I also think that people who self-identify with this particular set of labels are more likely (speaking in my own generalities, obviously) to take a more intense satisfaction in that yin-yang.
I love my transhusband’s differences from me. Yes, I consider him butch, because while he is male, he was born female. Therefore, female masculinity = butch, just at the extreme end of the spectrum. Our yin and yang is a significant player in our relationship.
Sheesh. I should probably just write my own post on this.
You’re entirely bias Raye, this relationship works for YOU and works in YOUR experience; in fact because it works I’m certain YOU actively seek out these kind of relationships. If you’ve only seen one side of the coin you can’t give an adequate description as to what a coin looks like.
Stereotypes can be useful, but as one of the younger regular readers this is one of the most off putting pieces I’ve read; are you saying that if you do not squeeze into a relationship archetype were there is a clear dominant lead and a more submissive feminine counterpart it will not work? There is variation even in the most minute groups and I fail to see how the sole purpose of a relationship is to be either ‘served’ or ‘serve’.
As for the ’99% of the time’ you’re so keen on throwing in, there’s a lot of world to cover and you are restricting your coverage. Perhaps couples that defy the culture conditioned norm go unnoticed as you seek out and register the same old dynamic in the same old way; besides you can’t lump a made-up statistic in a subjective point without reducing the credibility.
Anyhow; that’s my take on this, as one of the younger readers [this I am certain of], I will admit to having limited perspective and consequently this may be all meaningless gunk. Oh well….
An extra interesting something to be interpreted: “Stereotypes and empirical generalizations are neither good nor bad, desirable nor undesirable, moral nor immoral. They just are. Stereotypes do not tell us how to behave or treat other people (or groups of people). Stereotypes are observations about the empirical world, not behavioral prescriptions.”
– The Scientific Fundamentalist -
O god it’s stereotypes like that that kept me firmly in the closet. As I had long hair in college & no way was I going to be the submissive lil femme! well it’s 20 years later & the internet & TV has shown me a whole diverse world of lesbian women. It’s great being out & I firmly kick those stereotypes to the curb.
Raye you love what works for you; great.. But I call anyone on it if they try to categorize me as a femme & yeah I still have long hair & wear nice shoes & love the martial arts;-)
I think I just got reminded of why I like you, Raye. However, as usual, nitpicks upcoming.
My first is your bullshit statistics. What is with that? 9/10 straight women seek to be the sub? I liked the fact you said ‘in my experience’ though. Wouldn’t it have been easier leaving it at that? No numbers.
I do believe that relationships with imbalance can still work very well, despite your protestations. But I’m not game to say openly, ‘You’re wrong.’ Because nobody here that comments or contributes directly is. (Also, I’m by far the worst person to make blanket statements because most of my relationships with either gender have seen me firmly in the cared-for role. Like a human pet but less loving.)
Best line this week: “because most of my relationships with either gender have seen me firmly in the cared-for role. Like a human pet but less loving.” LMFAO!!!!Thanks Sarah 1.2, I’m totally using that!
It’s like tossing a steak into a pack of ravenous wolves… hehehe. I’ll have you know I am thoroughly enjoying this. ahem..
Anyway correct me if I am wrong but I did point out that your appearance is not what makes you femme or butch.
Secondly, thanks Melissa I knew you would get me. And I always appreciate your ability to be honest and realistically self-aware.
Thirdly, Jolie… God bless you for being THAT kind of femme. And I love the scarf… really.
I think I feel another blog coming on…
Actually Sarah you just made up a bullshit statistic of your own
lol I never said “9/10 straight women seek to be the sub” in fact I specifically said “This is not to say that all femmes are submissive all the time or that all butchies are dominant all the time.” But I am pretty sure 90% of straight women want to be subs was never uttered… yep pretty sure. But I loved your comment about the human pet thing… awesome!
Ooops. Behave silly Sarah. *smacks forehead*
“Of all the hetero relationships I know, the woman is almost always the more dominant one. With this in mind, I don’t feel that a straight woman would automatically seek to be the co-pilot in a homo relationship.”
I have to disagree with the first sentence, but agree with the second one.
Maybe why I can understand where Raye is coming from is because I know from this blog that she grew up in a more conservative area with a somewhat conservative family. While my family definitely is was not conservative (nor liberal, either), the area we all reside in is and so both of us have probably witnessed a lot more of the traditional male/female roles played out.
Maybe we’re defining dominance differently. To me, a guy that allows his wife or girlfriend to handle most of the work and make most of the decisions in the day-to-day operations of their relationships, but still has the ultimate say over the significant big-ticket items, is still dominant. That tends to be for me the most prevalent model of hetero relationships I’ve observed.
That doesn’t mean that I think all women, straight or gay, necessarily are satisfied with that arrangement, hence why I agree with the second sentence. Likewise, Raye isn’t saying that, either.
What she IS saying is that for formerly straight women who were satisfied with that model of a relationship (but found they weren’t satisfied with men) will probably prefer having the same arrangement with a dominant butch woman. She’s making a statement about a very specific group of women.
Now, I’m thinking obviously, if you weren’t happy being in that model of a relationship with a man, then you probably won’t be just because a woman is filling that role instead now. I know I wouldn’t be, but I also know I’m not the kind of woman Raye is describing, either, so I’m not assuming her references cover me or my relationship.
As far as having a dominant/submissive dynamic with my own partner, my ideal is to have a sort of ebb and flow approach that evens out as ultimately equal between the two of us. There are definitely times and circumstances where for whatever reason, I need to be dominant, and still others where she is. Then there are times when we really need to figure out shit together. An example I’ve heard before is that you can’t really have a car with two steering wheels, two gas pedals, and two break pedals, and have both partners operating both sets at all times. You need just one partner in the driver’s seat…however, when you’re driving 18 hours cross country, you probably need to switch seats a few times.
I don’t know if I have anything left to say about all this but I love the “picture of me” and had no idea it was still “floating” around-lol!
I read everyone’s very thoughtful responses carefully and re-read Raye’s blog several times. Great points were brought up and shared. Now, let me see if I can write this without bringing the wrath of everyone because it is certainly not my intent to do so.
When lesbians are portrayed even movies and tv I think it’s similar to how black people were initially depected–let’s say back in the 30s when Hattie McDaniel and excellent actors such as herself only got roles that depicted them as servants. Ms. McDaniel earned an Academy Award for a role many people deem as offensive, today–offensive because they believe it was stereotypical and degrading. It isn’t and wasn’t fair but the truth is when we bring something into mainstream for the first time we as humans have a tendency to do it with stereotypes people will accept and not feel threatened by. When I saw Desert Hearts in it’s original release, I thought that was how all lesbians must look-I’d never seen lesbians in a movie before and I was YOUNG. And in honestly, I have emulated that to some degree and still do…. I swear I am getting somewhere with this…
I am convinced that lesbians of a certain age—mine and older mostly—were exposed to few lesbian relationships to view and analyze—either in our neighborhoods, churches or in movies and many of those were depicted as butch/femme. We emulate the images we see and to a large extent, opposites do attract. I think this century has seen way too many lesbians molding their gender roles after heterosexual roles and butch/femme roles because those are what we have been primarily exposed to in real life and media. Doesn’t make anyone right or wrong—I am just saying there are more “options”….
Right or wrong? Well, just as not every black woman in 1930s America was a mammy, not all lesbians today fall into the June and Ward Cleaver stereotypes we saw on tv in reruns about what a “relationship” looks like.
I was much more butch in appearance in my twenties but was still probably considered androgynous at the time. Most of us wear what makes us comfortable—maybe we follow trends and yes we do adapt to other people’s desires or expectations to a degree. All women are different–absolutely–but in my own unique experiences the women I have been attracted to are very femme. They want me to kill spiders for them but do not want to come home and see me changing the oil in the driveway…lol. They like me to kill those spiders in an Ann Klein suit…not a men’s suit. And even though I have long hair and wear makeup and might not set YOUR gaydar off, I do not want to spend the day at the spa or having nails done and shopping at Vickie’s. But I love women who DO.
The whole “used” to be straight debate? Not fair to those living life now as lesbians. I have only had long term relationships with women whom had been briefly married when they were younger. I never thought they were straight—I thought they had done exactly what their parents brought them up to do and what society expected and what more often than not their own religious beliefs dictated. Not everyone can “buck” all that from age 3 like some of us do….I am glad I had the strength but sometimes I feel like a “rarity” and I feel bad so many people I know had to conform when they were young. However, my partners who had been married were always treated “better” than I by my own family and I believe it is because since I never got married, my family thinks there is a little something wrong with me mentally—because I wouldn’t even try it. The women in my relationships therefore were always considered the head of this household by my family and by me on most days due to perception of others. So, the deal is….whatever people want to do, dress, be, etc….we should just believe what they say they are and what they say they prefer. I think that’s how I got involved with this site and my first posting was my story about how I had commited the ultimate lesbian sin by falling in love with a professed straight woman. Our sexual, emotional and intimate almost year long situation did not make anyone think she was straight except she believes she is, therefore it is her truth. And no, she was NEVER MARRIED.
I have talked to women that love butch women—I have been with women that prefer me a “little more butch” and I was with one woman ten years that really, really disliked all things butch and made comments such as, “If I want a man I’ll get a man…” whenever I popped up with mannerisms or clothes she deemed too butch. And, I fall into that, myself. I can go in public and see beautiful femme women and NEVER know which are lesbians…dykes are easy to find but, fortunately or unfortunately I am not attracted to the look or the often very male mentality that can come with it. Yes, I felt all those mental kicks and pinches some of you just whacked me with. But, the flag we wave is rainbow colored for a reason—there are many colors and shades. We aren’t just lesbians. We are all very complex humans that prefer to have sex with women as WE define it. Younger lesbians get that because they have seen everything portrayed…
As for Raye—I’d love to hang out and have a beer with you. I’m sure we could learn a lot, laugh a lot and “scope on the chicks” together!
LOL
Martini-Gurl Just wanted to comment on and support your post. I have written you before so you know I am an odd man out lol on this “site”/blog being that I’m “straight”- though totally questioning it and honestly NOT having the easiest time internally right now with all that (this does eventually lol connect with what you wrote lol please be patient w/ me I talk in circles LOL) – Anyhow all my questions about these feelings I have is why I found this site in the 1st place. As I mentioned to you before, my brother is gay and I secretly know I have those feelings myself (I can see a beautiful butch lesbian and my heart completely melts, a “hot” guy that all my friends comment about him- nothing to me????) This is where my connection to what you wrote about comes in, I have had first hand experience with (hope it’s ok to quoet you here) “I thought they had done exactly what their parents brought them up to do and what society expected and what more often than not their own religious beliefs dictated. ” Being there through literally every minute and every discussion of the long process of my brother “coming out” and supporting both him and my parents etc. Wiping all of their tears, late night calls supporting and listening to both sides, peace-making between them etc. I understand all too well the meaning, emotions and details underlining what you wrote because I am very close with my family and I heard and saw everything. Plus with what I am going though myself now – your sentence I just quoeted is ringing back to me again loudly like it did when my brother “came out”. Which is one HUGE reason why I am struggling so much myself
right now because I would never want to put them through all that again so instead I talk myself out of my attractions/feelings towards other women (actually only butches 
sigh) because I would NEVER want to hurt her (a future partner) in any way ever and I would NOT want to cause more drama for my family in terms of another “coming out” in the family. Because of my experience with my brother “coming out” etc I sincerely have termendous respect (and always will) for the entire gay/lesbian community because unfortunately society IS prejudice/ignorant. This is where my connection to another point you said (hope ok to quoet) “my family thinks there is a little something wrong with me mentally—because I wouldn’t even try it (marriage)” comes in. This sentence hit me VERY hard and I am SO sincerely sorry that you (and/or anyone who is gay/lesbian) has to deal with this. I had a couple religious friends try to pull this crap with me about my brother with their comments of “blah blah mentally unhealthy blah, blah” and let me tell you I am a very happy and very calm person but that conversation was NOT going to happen on my watch!!!!!! That is a horrible thing for anyone to say or anyone to have to go through.
. ) Another point you brought up 
see people DO really read all these blogs lol also hit me (again hope ok to quoet you) “The whole “used” to be straight debate? Not fair to those living life now as lesbians.” I totally agree with you on this not being “fair…” and that is another reason why I am really struggling with my own feelings towards women because/considering I have always been considered “straight” by everyone (though 2 years ago my mom did come straight out and ask me if I was a lesbian???? “No!” Of course being as honest as I am I would be screwed if she asked me that ? tomorrow lol .) Also, in connection to this (your) sentences “The whole “use” to be staight…not fair….” honestly I am even struggling with myself in terms of my taking up writing space on this site 
since I have never even kissed a woman (though trust me I want to lol). I really enjoy this site and reading all the blogs so hope it’s ok that I write in reply. Anyhow, I believe EVERYONE deserves respect and dignity. Take good care. 
Jazi (aka- “confused mess” lol-lovingly said towards myself lol of course 
(Because of my brother and my own beliefs about human dignity I am a HUGE advocate of gays/lesbian rights which I now find it ironic that I am dealing with these feelings myself but yet am more of an advocate for others then for myself regarding these “gay feelings”- don’t know how else to word it lol I know that sounds cheesy lol- that I have been having. I am SO confused
Martini- Gurl Wow sorry I wrote SOOOOOO much! LOL
Martini-Gurl- One more thing lol with the “mentally unhealthy” in regards to not getting married I defended my brother on that SO many times and now ironically find myself defending myself on that as well- I get comments like that a lot too.”You are so prettywhy don’t you find a nice guy (my eyes roll) – why aren’t you married…”- Are you kidding me??? It gets sooooo old!!! One of my best girl friends is engaged to a guy who “thinks he is gay” lol “thinks lol” and so they go to all these religious retreats to “stop these feelings”- I have to lol at that because I think that is total bull shit!!!!! Be who you are!!!! (I know I’m “calling the kettle black” on that one if you read above, but my thing is I do not want to get anyone elses heart involved/hurt and so am taking time to figure out my own confusion about my stuff.) I have told my best friend sooo many times do not marry him he is going to leave you for a man, but she thinks he will change-no one should “have” to change that is BS…..my god society bitches if you are gay, society bitches if you are not married to someone of the opposite sex because you know you are gay and want to be w/your own gender….society bitches if you conformed to society and married someone of the opposite sex and then realized you should/need to be true to yourself and leave your straight marriage to be in a same sex relationship….society bitches if you marry someone of the same sex……wow society can be a real bitch. LOL
Martini-gurl I am sure I would totally enjoy that.
Jaz–God will take care of it…yes, I do believe—-yes, controversial BUT God doesn’t make mistakes and gives us the life WE CAN LEAD….yep—-gives us control to LEAD our lives, not just live our lives. US. I wake in the mornings and am pissed at that same God for not letting me wake up to panty hose on my shower rod…..so to have never kissed a girl, I can’t imagine. Total heart ache for you especially since you were so understanding of your brother. And yes, my family is ok with the gay thing—-but they treat me in a weird way REALLY —like I am a savant—because I didn’t get married but I have special skills. SUCKS. What I miss most about that girl—-I’d rather smell her neck in the morning than Starbuck’s coffee any day….I miss her and I have allowed that to almost take me to my knees, emotionally and financially….how do you deal with that kind of loss? i obviously have not handled it well and have NEVER seen the world from here—down on the ground. And I miss everything about her “Type A” personality. EVERYTHING down to the 22 sizes of zip loc bags she kept in stock and USED. LOL
HEY Dear Cardcarrying Lesbian….can I get a guest stint???? I mean c’mon—-right wing gay girl that always falls for femmes who believes in the power of Emily Post and has major hangups and baggage galore???? I see a blog comin’ on—-and…I always did want a white wedding—Chanel style. Did I tell you I like penetration? That could be a four month blog in itself….lol. NAH–I’m fine being your Martini-gurl who pops in on a slow day or time to time. This site rocks—we have to help one another—not hurt. God’s pissed—-we’ve had over 2 thousand years and can NOT treat one another respectfully…just sayin’…..
Martini-Gurl Thanks for your words. I am just really struggling with all this right now because I saw what happened when my brother “came out” and never want to put my family through that- though in reality (and said VERY respectfully towards them) they choose to respond etc that way. Since my brother did not choose the best way to “come out” (long story) and since he lives far away and I live close by, I was literally every day- with no exaggeration on every day- for 4 YEARS (he “came out” 6 yrs ago) I was the one that my mom leaned on, I was the one who dried her tears, listened and supported late night calls, heard the pain and disappointment in her voice etc and was the go-between them w/my brother. So now that I continue to have these feelings myself (towards women) well I just can not deal with all that again and this time I would be the one “coming out” so I just turn my head
(and feel like crap and sad inside) when I see a sexy butch 
because of all that and I NEVER want to hurt anyone- not anyone- not a future partner either. Anyhow, it is a horrible thing to have these feelings but not be able to express them because of this so I am really having a hard time. 
But it is what it is and I have always been the type of person to put others feelings above my own- be that bad or good – that is just the type of person that I choose to be. As for you I am SO sorry of your heart ache over your girl and I really hope that time will heal your wounds of the heart. Be kind to yourself- those are the hardest wounds to heal. I am an artist so that always helps me – expressing myself through art – you might try that. Or if not, as you mentioned turn to God though not sure if He is listening- I think He might be on vacation right now. hehe (just kidding) Keep yourself busy, but allow yourself time to process to. Since your mentioned God- look up the “Serenity Prayer” and memorize it -that helps. I know the pain of your break up feels like it will never go away, but it will eventually. Be strong. Take good care- Jazi