By guest blogger, WWG
This blog post is going to get me into miles of trouble. I know this in my heart before I even send it to Sasha. I wrote something similar previously and then rescinded it. But I need to get it out there. And I’ve thickened my skin to take on whatever arrows come my way, and I know there will be plenty, many very well deserved. I am, afterall, sharing my ignorance and confusion in a highly public forum for all to judge and question. It is a role I took on willingly, and therefore, I take on the results of it willingly as well.
I am a lesbian. I’ve detailed on here the only a portion of the struggles I’ve been through to get to the point where I can not only say that to myself in my head, but to my family, to my friends, and more and more, to the world. But I think it’s been shown even in the bits I have written about it, my struggle to become comfortable with this identity has been a huge thread in my life, through which I went through a lot of trials and tribulations and difficult times. I finally have come to the understanding that I am not a woman built for men, and I am finally (mostly) okay with that.
I’ve also been very frank about my attraction to androgynous and butch women. And this is where my issue lies. Tonight I was on a dating site, and as I scrolled through the list of women, I found several I thought were cute. And of those, as I read their profiles, a few of them made mention of preferring male pronouns. And then I read another site tonight wherein someone else who had always said they were adamantly butch mentioned trans thoughts. It was not a surprise really, but it somewhat was.
When I first came out so many years ago, trans wasn’t even a topic. I knew of one person online who was trans, and already was a man, and frankly, I didn’t think about it too much either way other than to vaguely wonder the typical questions, mostly about sex (I was 22 – EVERYTHING was about sex then). But back then, I could find lots of hot butch and androgynous women with ease, even if I was confused about my attraction to women.
I came out again after so many years because I finally realized that it is the interplay of masculine and feminine energies that gets my engines roaring and that men, with their solely masculine energy, felt too distant and uncomfortable for me. Their bodies were flat, other than the lightswitch between their legs. I shied away from their touch and attempts to get me to care for them as more than friends was futile. I may be attracted in part to the masculine energy, but I adamantly and absolutely need feminine energy in my love life as well. I mean, boobs. They’re awesome! I love them. And pussy is hot. I am a woman, I know women are rarely comfortable in our own bodies, myself included at times. But is it wrong of me to want a woman who enjoys her breasts as much as I do? Who will allow me to pleasure her?
To quote the actress Skyler Cooper: “I love butch women for what they represent. Unfortunately, I believe butch woman have not been properly understood. There are hordes of stereotypes about them in the media and our communities that don’t represent what I call butch. With that said, this is what I love about butch women: they have a natural marrying of masculinity and femininity in a woman’s body. It’s the essence of the two genders carried by a woman. It’s spectacular to see. A pure anomaly of nature. …”
Precisely.
The woman I was smitten with who dumped me, whenever people saw her picture, they would always respond “she looks like a boy!” Yes, her body had a masculinity to it, and no, she wasn’t girly by any stretch of the imagination, but she was most definitely a woman with a lot of feminine and soft energy as well. She had the essence of the two genders within her, and I found that mix a heady and intoxicating perfume which made me crave her like no other. I loved that so much. Shortly after our relationship, I met what I thought was a super cute butch woman, only to be corrected that he was a transman, which was part of what caused me to write the post the first time around. There were other issues which kept us from moving forward, but I will absolutely admit that the idea of dating a male-pronouned person threw me, and hard. How do I, as a lesbian – a woman who is sexually attracted only to women – date someone who views themselves as male and would want me to view them as male too? Their gender goes directly against my orientation! And yes, I know as someone who dated men previously, I should be more open and open-minded. Perhaps this is the pendulum of the “convert” (I loathe that word in reference to LGBT stories) swinging hard from one way to the other and at some point will find its own happy medium. Perhaps.
But I won’t lie – part of me feels abandoned by this trans revolution. Do NOT misunderstand me. As I’ve found the peace in my own skin by coming out as a lesbian, I too want others to find peace in their skin, whether it be orienation, gender, or anything else. That happiness is priceless and belongs to no one but ourselves and I support seeking that out 1,000,000%. As I’ve become comfortable with my identity, my life has opened up in ways I could never have previously imagined. It feels good, and I do want everyone to have access to that feeling. But that is precisely why I’m having so many issues and wanted to write this blog. I want a girlfriend and one day, I want a wife. I want to be able to say female pronouns when referring to the one I love so people know that I am most definitely a gay woman. I fought so hard to get male pronouns out of my love life that I’d feel like a giant hypocrite by saying “my boyfriend.” Or as my diamond-in-the-rough best straight guy friend said when I was talking to him about the transguy mentioned above – “but that’s a dude?! I don’t care what’s between his legs – that’s a dude. Why would you want a dude?”
I don’t. I can’t, as a lesbian woman, be comfortable with a man in my lovelife, regardless of how he started out life or what gender he was assigned at birth. The lover in me cannot acknowledge him as and treat him as a man, and to do otherwise would be extraordinarily disrespectful. I can give respect, I can give admiration, adoration, and much kudos to men, but I simply am not capable of loving one. Were this possible, I would define myself as bisexual, and I would have married one of the great guys who tried so hard to capture me in the past.
And this is where I, as a butch and androgynous-loving woman, a lesbian, am finding myself at a crossroads of confusion.
Well, I told you all it would get me into trouble. Go ahead, have at me.
I totally understand where you’re coming from, WWG. I get this completely. I dated a stone butch before who asked me if I would stay with her if she ever transitioned. I thought about it and then answered honestly, “No I wouldn’t. Because I’m a lesbian and I’m with you because you’re a lesbian. If you ever transitioned, I would absolutely be there for you as a friend and a support system. But not as a lover.”
And she got that. She didn’t like it but she understood.
WWG, just like you want everyone to be happy in their own skin, you deserve the same thing. You shouldn’t be expected to alter who you’re attracted to based on other people changing their gender for themselves. In fact, that would be hypocritical of them, if they expected that of you.
I mean here we have the trans community striving for acceptance, and they ABSOLUTELY deserve it. So I would think that if anyone could/would understand the need to be accepted and respected for who you really are and what you’re really attracted to, it would be them.
In the end, in the words of Shakespeare,
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Don’t worry that you only like butch/androgynous women. I promise you there are plenty still out there looking for a femme like you. They aren’t ALL trans ….
I think your feelings about this are completely valid. There is definitely a difference between butch and trans. Even though I am not really comfortable being called a woman or girl, that is because I am butch. Not because I am a man. Butch is a gender. We are neither. There are many things about me that are hyper-masculine. But then there are things about me that are solely female. I know what it is like to carry a child. You can’t get more female than that. I have been there. There are moments that I contemplate transitioning because there are moments that people piss me off because they treat me like a girl and I am not a girl. But then I think about Stone Butch Blues and remember that transitioning did not solve that for her either. And I have seen cute butchies lose their hair after undergoing testosterone therapy. I sooooo do not want to lose my youthful appearance and my hair just so I can be called sir. I get called sir all the time now. I understand the need to be who you feel you are. But not being attracted to it is your own personal preference. In my mind butch is what I am. I don’t feel fully male nor do I feel fully female. I embrace my chick-flick loving side. But I am a full on masculine boi. And honestly lately I have been wanting penetration from my femme on occasion more and more (totally a subject for another blog). I don’t want to be either or. I don’t need to change anything to make the outside match the inside. I am butch and I look butch. What’s to change? Some people can’t accept this and need to take it a step further. I personally think that people like me are what angels are made of… neither male nor female.
I have always found androgenous so incredibly sexy and attractive!!! Also there is something so unspeakable magnetic I feel towards butch women. One of my best friends is a gay male who is (in his words not mine) “lesbian trapped in a man’s body” -opposite of what u mention but in a similar ballpark so I’ve been learning out/hearing about etc all sides of what you write in your post. I wish I had wisdom on this subject. Some answers to provide. But I got nothing. Just a huge attraction and equally huge amount of respect towards androgenous and butch women.
Another thing is that once a trans-man makes the transition, he literally is a MALE. And a lot of times, he will expect to be in a “straight” relationship. Whereby it would seem to me, that they would be attracted to straight women?? Or at least a woman that is happy to live a hetero-lifestyle. And if a woman identifies as a lesbian, they shouldn’t expect her to change her orientation for them.
Unfortunately Sasha, most straight women are not open-minded enough to see the trans-man as a man. It is a fantasy world to believe that just because you are ok with who you are that the ones you desire will see you as what they desire. Many of us including the butchies want the life that a straight girl offers but the straight girls don’t see you as normal. It is yet another reason I don’t want to be a trans man. I would feel like a man but I would be in no-man’s land when it came to women. It takes a very open-minded woman to accept and love a transman. God bless em because they are genuinely open. I just know what the world says about transgendered people all around me and I would rather be who I am and still be desired by the femmes in my community who love me than pine after women who will never see me as a viable love interest and try to fit into a mold in which I will not be accepted in my lifetime. But to me love is an important part of my life. To others it is more about being comfortable in their own skin. I don’t try to change myself to fit someone else’s mold as how or who I should be because I will never be a man in their eyes even if I wanted to be. I will be a punching bag for ignorant assholes. That is why I am thankful I am not trans. I am constantly having to educate the ignorant straights around me who make disparaging remarks about Chaz Bono and others like her. I try to explain to them that the biology of their brains is even consistent with their professed gender but no one hears it. All they see is a freak. I feel pain and pity for transmen. I have a couple of friends who transitioned and I love them dearly but it isn’t for me. It’s a hard road. Why not just accept that you are not a binary gender? You were built greater than that. You are the best of both worlds. But that is just me. To me, butch is truly complete. To them it isn’t.
Raye, I agree with everything you said. I used to say that I could never be with a transman but recently, thinking about it again, I think I could and I say that because of Remi. If Remi ever told me she was trans and had to go through all the transitions necessary to become a male, I would TOTALLY stay with her and support her love her no matter what.
So, in that case, I think sometimes, love can transcend orientation …. errr … wait …. maybe not transcend but force expansion of orientation in order to stay with the one you love.
And to be perfectly honest the more I learn about the trans community, the more I could have seen myself accepting it in a partner. Because lets face it, a transman is still part of the queer community. They will never be fully accepted as a bio-male by everyone. So it makes sense that a queer femme would find them attractive.
I have definitely seen some hot transmen. Had I been single, I probably would have gone out on a date with them …. the trouble I see would be further down the line, eventually losing my identity as a “lesbian” were I to fall in love with them. It would be like going back in the closet in some respects.
Definitely, mad props to the transcommunity for being so brave and strong and to the people that love them.
I just think that if a lesbian is a lesbian, she shouldn’t be expected to change her orientation for a trans-man.
I know the feeling….
To me, someone can identify as a lesbian and still be in love with, and be in a relationship with a man. That’s one person’s identity! It is unfair to ask them to give that up, on both sides! And frankly, it has nothing to do with anyone else, at the end of the day. I’ve known this happening with men before, they seem fine with it. If a man can accept his partner viewing him as the “exception,” and he her, then that’s that. No one else’s opinion is needed.
But I’ve yet to see it be that easy. Especially when someone’s identity is tied up in it being validated by someone else’s identity.
I was just in a “discussion” that was awfully one sided. A transman (or “man”? is it necessary or PC to drop the trans part?) said that if a lesbian was in a relationship with a transman then she is no longer a lesbian, because a lesbian is a woman who is only attracted to women.
But the human sexual experience is not that black and white; hence, the Kinsey Scale.
I just think… “How dare you?” How dare you, someone who has and probably will continue to go through life being invalidated as not being a “real man” because “real men are X” EVER put that on someone else? It just left a bitter taste in my mouth….
And I’d be open to love, in whatever form it takes. But it does seem to me that women who identify as butches and bois, enjoy a more traditional structure, and identify as female are a rare breed. Maybe I’m looking in the wrong places?
Thank you all for the wonderful responses to this. I was nervous asking for it to be posted, but it’s a discussion I needed to have and figured maybe others do too.
I’m not at all saying transmen aren’t part of the queer community. They are and I am glad for them as part of the community. But Sasha brings up the point that I’m having trouble with – “the trouble I see would be further down the line, eventually losing my identity as a “lesbian” were I to fall in love with them. It would be like going back in the closet in some respects.”
Well, that and I’m just not attracted to them (yes, I’m generalizing at the moment since I have no one in particular to discuss) once they transition. Buck Angel in the Cursed Female video I find hot, but Buck Angel after full transition I find attractive in the way I find Brad Pitt attractive – easy on the eyes, but not personally compelling.
Years ago I read the book “She’s Not There” by Jennifer Finney Boylan, in which she transitions from male to female and although there is still great love between her wife and her, her wife is not a lesbian and therefore it creates this odd situation of loving each other deeply but the attraction disappearing. I can relate to that very much.
I have a guy friend who, if I were able to find men attractive, I’d marry him in a heartbeat. I would want for nothing and I would be treasured and treated like gold. He already treats me that way and we are just best friends. What it took many years for me to discover is how anchored my orientation is. And that’s a lot of what caused me to come to write this post. As a member of the queer community, as a woman who is open-minded in many ways, I want to believe I wouldn’t turn away love because it’s in the male form now, but the truth is that love has wanted to come to me in the male form several times in my life and no matter how hard I tried, the door just wouldn’t open to accept it. I am a lesbian through and through. I think if I ever had an exception to my type it wouldn’t be a man. It would be a femme!
Raye, I’m glad you described butch as a gender. That made such extraordinary sense to me. I definitely ascribe to the idea that there’s more than a binary gender. I like the idea that that can make you feel complete. I needed to hear that.
I’m feminine but I’ve had an (online only) friend try to tell me I had masculine energy. It’s true, I’m a pretty strong, independent woman, outgoing and assertive woman and I don’t fall into your delicate idea of femininity at all (perhaps part of the reason why femmes hit on me more than butches?). When I was younger, while I was still going through my attempts to be bisexual/straight, I felt odd because I basically treated men like men treat women – as my little playthings/sextoys with no real emotions attached. I felt odd in my gender in that way. As I’ve come out, I feel so wholly feminine and right. It’s not a gender issue for me, it was an orientation one.
I need to go out now, but I have more to say. Until later.
WWG…good luck to you for sure…she’s out there!
I find this topic fascinating. I am glad that it exists on an open blog so it is easier to find for anyone who is questioning or has doubts about their own identity. WWG, you certainly bring a lot of substance to the table, and Raye, your comments are enlightening and have sometimes been known to hit a nerve for some. I think personal preference varies, and gender identity is individualistic in nature. Just because a person might identify a certain way at any point in their life, does not mean they are bound to that identity for their entire life. I once knew a straight girl, Darla, who was going through a painful divorce. She had a kid and identified as straight to the point where she thought queer was a deviation from the norm. After her divorce, she was desperate for romantic attention. She hit the bars and hit on men, slept with an unknown number of them in a bid to validate her existance. She moved across town and got a new job as a symbol of moving on. At her new job, she befriended a girl who became her running buddy. Oh, they lit up the town together, but it never became apparent to Darla that her new bestie was gay. The new BFF was going with her to straight bars to watch as Darla hit on men only because it gave her the chance to be near her. They were really good together. They laughed their asses off at everything and it was an instant party the moment they entered a room together. I think you all probably know where I’m going with this. Over time, about a year, the new best friend came out to Darla and declared her feelings for her. Darla was shocked to find out how oblivious she had been and told her that while she was flattered, she couldn’t take her up on it because she was straight. Over another year, this lesbian continued to party with Darla, but ever so slowly, she showed Darla what it meant to be treated with respect and cherished. I was told things changed one night when Darla’s friend bit the bullet and landed a kiss. It must have been some kiss, because from that moment on, Darla was no longer straight and they have been happily together ever since. Darla swears that before then, she had never entertained a sexual attraction to women. And even now, she claims that this woman is the only one and that if, God forbid, things fell apart between them, she’d likely go back to men. She still does not identify as a lesbian, but says her partner is the love of her life. Go figure.
WWG I’m telling you- GO to the NY holiday party for the lesbian/gay writers organization link I sent you- your dream butch could be waiting there to me you.
Ask her if she has a butch twin sister for me. 
(WWG- opps I meant to put that comment on “Persumed Straight” post. And typo- …meet you… (It’s been a long day!)
@femmelover – thank you and same for you!
@Rexie – Thank you!!! That is very sweet of you and very appreciated.
Yes, I understand that I’m writing these posts somewhat on the hypothetical. I haven’t found the love of my life and if she happened to be a he, then perhaps I would have to expand my definition of my identity to let that in. Your story is making me think of the song “The Only Exception” by Paramore.
@jaz – thank you! Just RSVPed. Will probably let you know how it went privately. And will sooo find a butch twin for you.
Btw, when I first came out I briefly dated a butch twin. She brought her twin sister on our two dates (they were coming from out of state and hung out with friends here and I met them too). It was…odd. Identical twin dykes. They were cool and all, but I’m so not going there again!
WWG- YEAH!!!! I’m SO happy you’re going. Weird how cyber space works. Yes please let me know (off CCL) how it goes http://www.starjazi.blogspot.com (Sorry for our side convo
on this BUT it does somewhat relate to the/your WWG “Presumed Straight” post- go to this party and apply the CCL butch flirting tips given in the comment section to see if you are still persumed straight but the butchies. 
)
I’ve struggled with this same issue, although I have yet to meet a transman who seriously tempted me.
But I think that I could date an FTM if he was physically mentally & emotionally attractive.
It would mean shifting how I ID from lesbian to queer, but I *think* I could do it. I’ve met some really sweet thoughtful Transguys online, and, IDK, it’s not what I’m looking for but I wouldn’t rule them out.
Also, I’d like to remind y’all to please use male pronouns for FTMs. I.E. Raye, I know you meant no disrespect, but I’m certain Chaz would prefer being called him to her!
Simple slip of the tongue. I am so used to having grown up with Chastity that I am still getting used to the thought of Chaz. It has happened with my personal FTM friends too. It’s a process.
@WWG Oh my God, you listen to Paramore!!
Back to topic though, I have a question for everyone. When people transition, is it that they want to make their body match whats on the inside? Or do they retain their female/male “insides” but now they are in a body they are comfortable with? Idk this whole topic confuses me…
The continuum of what constitutes gender is broad and, I suspect, elastic. Just as sexual orientation, on the Kinsey scale, is a range of attraction and orientation, not just a one-size-fits-all bifurcated either/or.
This suggests that gender and orientation can intersect in different points for an individual at different times. My femme identity has moved, and continues to move for me in my lifetime. I am a “gold star” lesbian, and have had no sexual or romantic interest in biological men. But as we learn more scientifically and culturally about gender expression/gender identity the world around me has changed in ways I could not have predicted 5 or 10 years ago.
My wife has a trans component to her. There are part of who E is that E identifies as male. Male in a deep core way, in a way that I cannot understand in my own personal life experience. But it is who she is, it is who he is. That male part is a segment of her butch identity, and her butch identity is also a stand-alone part of her lesbian identity. Confusing and clear.
Do I identify as a lesbian? Of course. Am I attracted to biological men? Never. Am I happily married to a fabulous butch? Forever. But I also understand that I am on a life journey with another person, and our task together is to be honest, to be open, to love and help each other become better human beings. Wherever that road takes us, we are in it together.
@Gemma: I believe we are shaped by our life experiences, by how society treats us, as well as by our inner compasses. As a woman of color, even if I was suddenly able to pass for white/male, even if I always felt “white/male” on the inside, my decades of experience as the recipient of racism/sexism overt or covert directed to me as a woman of color would remain a part of my fund of knowledge in a way that someone who did not have that direct experience could never have… Just as those of us who do not know what it feels like to feel completely dissociated from your physical body, to feel completely at odds in every way from your physical manifestation, to feel so completely in the wrong body that you contemplate killing yourself, can know the struggle of those who are trans.
Sometime soon, I hope the language catches up with the reality of the elasticity of gender, and makes talking about it easier. I often feel at a loss for the right words, and that is, I suspect, a problem with the current lexicon, the current vocabulary of our language, to describe the concepts and the realities of our evolving society, rather than a problem with our evolving world.
I think I could love a guy but I would never be attracted to one sexually I am a lesbian however I do have guy friends that I “love” but it’s a different kind of love. I get where your coming from it can be hard to look t someone who may have been born male and see them now as female but when it comes to love I say and it’s a quotefrom someone ‘love is loe no matter what form it may take’.
PB that was put beautifully and I suspect that only the people who live the transgendered experience will be able to come up with the words that properly describe it.
@Gemmma – Er, actually I’ve only ever heard that song, and the Aeroplane one (with B.o.B.). Guess I should check out more? Great questions though.
@PB – Please, please, please stick around!!! I am way too exhausted at this point to say anything of use other than exactly!
Hmm this topic hits home! A few months back I met a very sexy butch online. She funny as this may sound works in the building right behind mine. So one day we took lunch together. When I came down the steps and saw her standing there I felt week my god was she hot. Screaming masculinity in every sense of the word. So we went and ha lunch I was nervous and taken back by her but did alright. But after that date we lost touch
she seemed uninterested and I was left feeling disappointed.A month later I ha an urge to text her and that’s when she said ” I am sorry I wasn’t trying to ignore you I’m going through transition” Now me being the nieve little femme that I was had no idea what this ment. So he then said you know FTM which (moment of embarresment) I had to ask and then I was like oh… Ok well I would still like to be friends. I acknowledged him from then on as a man. He is not fully trans yet but it’s a respect thing. So before I ramble to much let’s get to the good part. The other night a friend of mine and I were going to go the gay bar I love and we invited him. When we went to pick him up and I saw him my heart stopped god damn he was hot I mean like u could still see a tiny bit of girl in him but he was just sexy hot! So fast forward we go out we’re drinking he’s touching me flirting and I was enjoying it. Fast forward again I was at his house and things went where I never expected. But this is where the confusion comes in he has never let any girl go down or touch down there and behind closed doors he gave me permission. At the end he told me he hadnt let any girl go there and that he was shocked himself that he let me. I left that morning so confused I like him just the way he is very butch/masculine and yet a woman but I new once he transitioned all the way it wouldn’t be for me. I don’t know about the rest of u but I love to go down I love body to body women chemistry I couldn’t be without it.
So next time we talked I was honest and do you know what he said!?!?
He wasn’t sure if he wanted to fully transition!
I fear it’s my fault …. I think I caused confusion would do you guys think?
Oh and sorry for any typos I posted from my phone which is a pain to do lol.
Hmm…. I would say keep communicating openly, and see where things go. Gender identity is a complex thing.
Luvbutches You might want to contact Jolie through CCL guest writers – her husband is/has transitioned. Jolie is extremely great resource for your ?s. Good luck.
Luvbutches I have to add the whole sexual and sexuality thing is extremely personal and we all have experiences, scars, insecurities we bring with us. Listen confidentially to him tell his stories.Be genuinely empathetic of his insecurities and of his questions. Life is fucking hard and to me (I am very old fashion) if you trust someone on an intimate level then there is a higher level of trust. Continue to honor and respect that level of trust.
@PB Thank you so much for your answers! I’ve never had it explained to me like that. Thanks for taking the time. And I’m with WWG, please stick around.
also, thank you.
@WWG lol! Two songs is better than none.