By Guest Blogger, WWG
It started with a comment on a facebook status. It moved to facebook chat. Then, when facebook chat no longer worked, it moved to gchat. It was a pleasant and lovely conversation with a former classmate, who I knew starting in elementary school. We won’t go into how weird I find it to be hit on by former playground mates, but anyway. We caught up a bit, and then, the inevitable came up. He casually slipped in a comment about commenting on my facebook status because he wanted to hit on me. And so, out came my response.
“I’m flattered but I’m gay.” Beat one. Beat two. Beat three.
“You know, I didn’t realize that, but thinking back, I’m not that surprised.”
Oh cool, thanks for such a respectful resp….Wait, WHAT?!
Everytime someone guesses or makes some comment about realizing I’m gay, I am beyond shocked. Pleased of course, but shocked. Afterall, I went to an all women’s college (no, don’t ask, I’m not sharing which one) and walked into a party with my then-girlfriend to have a classmate say “oh my god, WWG, I didn’t know you were gay, I would have asked you out!!” Um, thanks, I think?
Did I mention this was an all women’s school?!
Where you were assumed gay until proven straight?!
And even there, people thought I was straight.
I admitted it. I’ve totally given the eye to a taken butch or boi. I’m not proud of this. I’m absolutely not in the market for anyone else’s woman. I’m kind of selfish that way – I want her all to myself dammit! I am however, hungry for acknowledgement. No, it’s not that I want to make another femme jealous or insecure, but, well, I’d rather make a femme jealous than a straight woman. Sounds kind of crazy right? Rude? Backwards? But no, not at all. I’ve met men at events and talked to them, being my usual gregarious self, only to find some girlfriend come charging in and make her presence known. Oblivious little lesbian me is thinking “he’s really COOL! We’d be great FRIENDS!” Okay, so the charging in part is a bit of an exaggeration, but well, my former male colleague’s ex wife didn’t like me. I was the only young, single woman at our job and this was before I was out to myself let alone anyone else. She gave me the cold shoulder while happily chatting with my older, married female colleagues. If only she knew…
My first round of coming out all those years ago, I noticed that the more time I spent dating, hitting on, and flirting with women, the more women started hitting on me. It almost seems like anything you do, whether it be painting, writing, sports, or fucking women – the more you do it, the more you give off an energy that people read. How many times have you met someone and thought “yeah, you look like a painter/doctor/soccer player/big ole lesbo.” But the women that hit on me were fellow femmes or better yet, straight/bicurious girls who wanted me to have threesomes with their boyfriend. Great! I wish I was kidding, but I’m not. Somehow giving out the “I like women” vibe worked against me. Sorry, being into women doesn’t mean I’m into ALL women. And no, no amount of alcohol is going to make me want to sleep with you OR your boyfriend.
It’s an odd thing sometimes being a femme. As a straight (or presumed straight) woman, you’re rarely at a loss for some sort of male attention. If you even turn your head in a guy’s direction and catch eyes for more than two seconds, and maybe even smile, he’ll come over to you. No, this isn’t every guy, but a fair number of them. We femmes practically drown in male attention. But it’s not exactly the thing that makes us, ahem, wet, no?
Being a lesbian is a completely opposite experience. Do you have any IDEA how many times I’ve given a butch woman the eye? Caught her eye, gave her the ole appraising look and smiled? By that time, men are usually mentally on their post-orgasmic cigarette, and with butch women, not only do they never even seem to notice, but if they do and we start talking, they usually walk away after. “Aww the cute straight girl wants some attention.”
It’s really confusing honestly. I swear, I’m the butch/boi repeller and thank you, I’d like to return it to wherever I bought it from! I think in some ways I give the eye to taken butches and bois because there’s no likelihood they’ll leave their woman for me (I’d never let them either way), but I at least get to practice my flirting skills somewhat.
“Hey handsome. Yes, you! ::flutters eyelashes:: No, I’m not fluttering my eyelashes because I have something in my eye. Well, except you and your hotness. Rawr! Wait, where are you going?! No, don’t walk away!!! No…”
Sigh.
Presumed straight again.
So, to all my handsome butches and bois, I turn to you for some advice. What makes you notice and realize the woman talking to you is actually hitting on you? With men, just looking their way is an opening, so what would you take as an opening to hit on a woman when you’re outside of a lesbian-centric place (bar, event, etc). What can a femme woman, who loves her fashion and heels and makeup, do to convince you she’s not a straight girl attention whore but truly a femme who thinks you’re cute? I’m open to changing up my flirting techniques if need be! And can someone please tell me why I seem to attract fellow femmes only? I know many femmes like fellow femmes, but I’m not one of them. I know you all don’t know me in person, but might I give off too much of a strong/independent vibe maybe?
And can we please have one of our butch guest writers (RAYE, I’m looking your way!!) give out a “how to successfully flirt with a butch 101″ lesson?
I hear ya!
I’m one of those oblivious ones. You can flirt your ass off with me and my thought is “aww, she’s nice”. It never even occurs to me when a femme is flirting with me. I’m used to butch flirting techniques, so I really only notice when butches flirt with me (which is more often than when femmes do…).
So I’m no help at all. But I second the presumed-straight-girl frustration. No matter how butch you are, long hair gets you read as straight every single time.
i def hear you! as a fellow femme i never get noticed by butches or femmes, so maybe i just give off too much of a straight girl vibe :p although guys don’t even hit on me either. whenever i was in a bar, guys never hit on me. or anywhere outside of a bar either, come to think of it. but that may be b/c i never wanted them too, i was always looking at the girls and secretly thinking they were cute :p. i don’t think i’m particularly unattractive, ha, but a lot of people say i give off this ‘keep away’ vibe. which is confusing, and frustrating, esp. when i see a hot butch or tomboy
oh, what to do?!? maybe i just don’t understand when i’m being flirted with? LE SIGH….
Huh. I just assume everyone is flirting with me. Just kidding. Seriously when I look at a femme to actually date and not just flirt with…I’m shy. I never know if femmes are femmes or as you said straight girl attention whores.
It’s hard being a femme! I’m very friendly and outgoing by nature and, as you said, if you so much as smile at a guy they think you want to jump in bed =( although I admit, I do use that to my advantage when I need to. Women on the other hand, never seem to notice me…and I have NO game with women lol. I’m glad my current gf found me on a dating site and approached me otherwise I’d probably still be sitting home alone in my tiny little town (where the few dykes we have are all paired up). I watched the Ivan Coyote video a couple times…the first time I cried for her and her struggles, the second time I cried for me because the part about a femme not being recognized by her own people really hit home.
Ivan Coyote (OMG sexy!) had written/read in a video in reference to herfemme looking wife “you have to come out again and again”. This is SO true and connects w your post. I look straight though for some reason one of my best guy friends (who is gay) said “Yeah, hello I knew the moment I met u you were not straight!”
I told him that the stronger feelings/attractions that I have towards women the more random people (like coworkers) and when ive gone to Starbucks recently make comments hinting they think I’m gay. But NEVER a does lesbian ever notice me as looking gay 
. That drives me crazy- men hit on me but I want a strong, sexy butch to shower w love and to spoil her but all I get is straights thinking I’m gay/bisexual and gays thinking I am straight. Resulting in an empty heart w no butch to love. 
WWG I LOVE all the questions you asked in the last section of your post. I feel/think/say all these questions myself. Oh and that would be wonderful to have “flirting w a butch 101″- please! I agree and want to know – how does a straight looking girl find/attract her dream butch- ahhh sigh – the million dollar question.
oh wow! I dont feel so alone now.. I get the same thing!! I am assumed straight.. so the lesbian girls never hit on me.. and the straight boys never say boo either.. and I can be pretty shy and introverted sometimes so chalk all that up and well…. poo!
I was just lucky when my last gf and I found each other after leaving school… so here I am back on the dating scene again.. and feeling like a newb… BLECK! I hate it…
RadDyke, care to share your tips for butch flirting techniques? Maybe *we’re* the oblivious ones?
Oh, and hey Jaz, and anyone else this currently pertains to:
Is it possible that the people who are questioning you as a lady-lover are lady-lovers themselves? And single. And just want to know before making a move on you? Just asking.
It’s just hard to meet people period but even harder when looking straight. Ironically the opposite is true – I’ve seen some incredibly omg hot butch looking women who were totally straight so maybe they have a hard time meeting men- think they are gay. Oh the madness!
Elegy
no they are married coworkers for example- very happily married guy coworker, “What did u did this weekend?” me- “Hung out with a friend in the city…she…” Him (with a wink/wink and elbow edge into me) “Is she cute?” And he was blatantly NOT asking for himself. So no unfortunately the answer to your ? is no. But that’s a good question for people to think about so they don’t miss a potential opportunity to meet Ms. Right. 
I think, depending on what I’m wearing, people probably either think I’m super girly or a scrawny teenage boy who hasn’t quite hit puberty yet :/ And the other gay girls never quite suss me out. I need to up my own game.
Jazmenha, isn’t it odd when people start realizing you might be gay? I was at an event over the summer and this guy was hitting on me. I told him I wasn’t available and he said “what’s HER name?” My jaw almost fell out of my head!
Are you comfortable coming out to your coworkers? I never was.
WWG Yes it is VERY odd to me especially since as I’ve mentioned on CCL previously that
I have never actually “been with”- blushing- a woman. 
. “Carebear” is very open at his work but not me. However that is totally different because he’s now married 
and I am totally single 
– but if I was married I would of course be out at work. A couple weeks back I had a coworker totally out of the blue tell me her church thinks homosexuality is a sin. ??? I still dont know WTH that was about. I told her “Jesus was from the house of David and David was gay” 
and I walked away. Honestly I do not and will never understand why society is so damn afraid of gays. Grrrr I don’t like that!
And NO I am not saying anything to them though from a few comments I’ve received I doubt they’d be surprised. However I definitely won’t say anything about it at my work. A year back two coworkers were talking about dating guys and I was sitting there one asked me something like “Have u meant any guys lately!” And the other coworker jumped in saying “Jazmenha doesn’t date men.” I almost choked on my food. I honestly don’t know how or where they pick up the gay vibe since at work I just work. I NEVER wear dresses but that just isnt my thing. “Carebear” some times tells me I dress androgenously lol but my job is pretty intense and I prefer to wear pants. Some coworkers do know that “Carebear” (my brother) is gay and I NEVER talk about men so maybe they assume since it’s in the genes
WWG- And the coworkers church comment WAS directed at me not Carebear since she has no idea about him etc. I don’t care what they think on their own however I don’t feel the need to tell them the truth “hell yes I like women” and then I’d hand them some popcorn and we could watch a “nice” movie together.
Life we be so much easier if everyone just assumed everyone was gay and they had to “explain” being straight instead of assuming everyone is straight and having to “explain” being gay. WWG so glad you are writing for CCL now.
Ahhh, Jaz! You’ve come so far! I think that within a year you’ll be out at work, single or otherwise! Seriously, I just had a flashback of the you who first posted on this blog- you were hesitant to even entertain that you could like women! Now look at you!
And too bad, I was hoping some women were fishing for some ladies (poor word choice, but I’m going with it).
Meanwhile, the butches are holding out on us! XD
Oh, maybe we femmes can just go over how we do flirt? We’re still females, after all. Plus, this femme is open to other femmes (they just need a leading mentality).
Elegy
(blushing- YES ok I admit it OMG women are sexier than I have EVER found men to be. MUST be the boobies 
– inside joke from past post 
)
I believe there was possible writing topic you promised me you’d write about hehe)
WWG You bring up so many important points in your post. Who in society has created this “look gay” image and aren’t we being in an unconscious NOT intentional way being overlooked by butch women because maybe they think we ARE gay BUT they don’t want to mistake a straight (or don’t want to deal with a bi-curious like “Crush” was/is) – they don’t know just by looking at us. Or maybe WE think the are butch and they are actually straight thinking omg that gay girl is hitting on me but i AM straight. So your questions regarding how to break through that are great questions. I really hope one of the wonderfully wise CCL butchies steps up and answers all of your important questions- we all want to know the answers. (cough cough
Idk why but I don’t seem to have this problem. I give them a lustfull look and a subtle smile and they just know!
In my mind there’s nothing hotter than a femme who comes to me. My advice would be to go flirt shamelessly and when the butch has noticed you only after that let her do the chasing. :p
@Jaz – ugh, sorry about the coworkers! It’s so odd to me, I NEVER think about religion. It just doesn’t cross my mind. Yet, it seems the religious think about us gays a lot. (And I’m not trying to incite a religion vs. gays discussion/argument). It would be nice if people assumed everyone was gay or at least not straight. At Thanksgiving dinner tonight, I mentioned the exterminator waking me up the other day and one of the women at the dinner asked if he was cute. I made a face. And then later she saw my pride ring and asked about it. So ha!
Thanks for your compliment on my writing by the way. I’m pleased you like it. You actually bring up a good point too – butch does NOT always equal gay. I’ve had straight butch friends and funny enough, when we’ve been out together, people would automatically assume we’re a couple. Walking with my straight but butch friend gets me noticed as a lesbian – but a taken one. UGH! Can’t win. I guess the lesson we all need to learn is looks don’t necessarily tell you someone’s orientation. They can assist, but they aren’t the be all and end all. As for the topic I promised, I have more thinking to do on it before it’s ready. I am not going to put something out there I can’t be happy with or stand behind. Ask Sasha – I’m pretty much a perfectionist with my writing.
PS. Elegy is right – you’ve come a long way baby! Congrats!
@JStormin – scrawny teenage boy sounds hot!
@elegy – That’s a good question (how we femmes flirt). Honestly? I have no idea how I flirt, in large part because many a time when I’m just being my natural friendly and gregarious self, people assume I’m flirting. I’ve been accused of crushes for years. Kid you not. “I know you have a crush on me/on so-and-so.” The truth? It is INCREDIBLY rare for me to crush on people. Oh yeah, I have my celebrity crushes, but real life people? Rare as hell, which is why it’s so odd to me how many people think I like them. It’s caused issues in my life too but you know what? I am not dialing back my natural ways because someone else projects their interest onto me.
Oh, and the funny thing? When I don’t like someone, I’m very outgoing and natural and teasing. When I do like someone? I am BEYOND awkward. I want to run away. I will try to make it seem like I don’t like them because I feel way too vulnerable and that’s scary. I make stupid jokes, or can’t say a damned word and seem like I am duller than dishwater. I pull away. I…well, I know why I’m single now. Ugh.
With the woman I liked who dumped me, that was the first time I liked someone and wasn’t totally awkward and shy (but we met online first). I’d like to think I’m growing up, but probably not.
Oh, and I’m not good if someone seeks me out first. I have to at least have gotten a look at her first and gotten an instinct about her (especially in a bar). So I guess in some ways it’s better if I hit on a woman first maybe? I don’t know. That’s why I asked for lessons, because men were so ridiculously easy for me (as they are for any woman) that I feel so lost with women.
@justa notha – I guess that work, but I want a relationship, not casual sex.
@joey – I will try that more, thank you.
@joey – I just went to your blog and read your post – loved it! You bring up some excellent points. It is easier for us femmes in a way because you all stand out while we’re a lot more stealth, whether we want to be or not. I guess I forget that.
Allow me to say that I don’t EVER assume bois and butches to be “the man in the relationship”. If I wanted a man in my relationship, I’d date one. No thanks. My post was more about wanting butches and bois to respond when *I* am hitting on them, in what seems to me to be a fairly obvious fashion, and my frustration when they don’t seem to pick up on it.
I purposely wear a pride ring, which I thought would help me be noticed and recognized more, but I’m trying to think of anyone who’s ever noticed it and can’t, except perhaps one former colleague where I temped one day. It’s a rainbow, right on my hands, which people look at all the time and yet they still don’t seem to notice that?! ARGH! So, a question – do you look for rainbows on a femme woman? Would you notice that?
Since people always seem to assume I’m flirting with them (read: men), it drives me crazy that all the wrong people assume I’m flirting and the ones I really AM flirting with don’t catch on. Granted, I’m pretty oblivious myself, so I get it, I’m just frustrated too.
Ps. I read your blog and not only are you super cute, but you have great taste (http://bloodsuckinglezzy.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/incase-i-happen-to-get-married/).
Oh and I have a male ex who has a thing for lesbians. He likes them petite, small boobs, and not overly feminine (ie. fake nails, lots of makeup etc). So he’s found himself having crushes on more than a few lesbians in his time (ahem). Some men hit on androgynous and butch women because they are that oblivious and some because they’re just egotistical shits who think they can make any woman theirs (read: “Magic Stick??”). Ugh. Those guys are the bane of ALL women’s existence, straight and queer alike.
WWG give me a little time to think about a response to this. I have one but I would like to really think it through. I am not sure I can write a post on how to pick up a butch because everyone is different. I can only tell you how to get my attention for sure but if it works for me it is bound to work on other butches/bois. I’ll get back to you. Or as I stated on the other post you can always add me on facebook using that link to my name and we can talk about it without me having to get around to writing a blog.
Yes Joey…I totally agree. Come on femme women…don’t be shy, please!! COME…just hit a little…let us know a little femmes…please…
@WWG I do check if a feminine woman has some rainbow stuff on her. Or anything else that might suggest she’s a lesbian. But the problem is that some straight people wear rainbows too so you can never be sure. It’s not only once or twice that I’ve noticed a girl wearing a rainbow belt/shoelaces/you name it and next thing I know they’re making out with a guy. Ofcourse it could just be that they’re bi but in that case there are way more queer people than I thought. : D But if a girl came to talk to me and was wearing something with a rainbow on it, I’d be pretty sure she’s into girls.
Oh and thank you. : D
I am as out as I can be, but I’m still invisible in the general lesbian and straight worlds. As a femme of color, there is a double assumption that all lesbians are white and butchier than I am. I don’t happen to think I am excessively femme but my gay guy coworker recently told me that everyone is butchier than I am, including the straight girls.
Even male clients who know I am a lesbian “…as a lesbian, you know I…” can’t seem to help themselves. One recently suggested I run away with him, to which I responded with a smile “Hmm, Don’t you think I should probably run away with your wife”. To which, deflated, he said “oh, uh, yeah, I guess that makes more sense.”
Thank god I am not dating anymore, and have found and married my wonderful beautiful strong smart funny butch who is about as butch as they come. When we are together, no one mistakes me for straight.
In my dating past, the only way I got dates was by being set up by friends or meeting butches on-line. The in-person visual hurdles to get past the femme = straight equation were too daunting for me.
ps. The odd thing is that straight women tell me I am beautiful all the time (I don’t actually think I am particularly good-looking but c’est la vie), including straight girls who make sure to tell me that they aren’t trying to hit on me. Straight men hit on me. But the only category of interest for me, butches, have never hit on me in person. Ah, that compliment would be nice. So butches, please don’t be afraid to tell a woman she is pretty, straight girls do it all the time.
PB you have to understand where we are coming from. Yes we think you are beautiful and sometimes want so badly to tell you so that it is eating us alive inside. But we have to fight this predatory image that makes us feel like shit and like one of my readers said “would rather stab our eyes out with a fork” than be seen as the creepy butch hitting on a straight woman. We are between a rock and a hard place because if we qualify our compliment with “I am not trying to hit on you or anything but…” in order to prevent hitting on a straight girl and being the creepy guy, then we make you as a lesbian femme feel like we are not interested, when in reality we are interested which is the reason we complimented you in the first place… *breathes*
*sigh* Do you get where this is going? You HAVE to let us know you are that chameleon in disguise. You can see that we are who we are. We make no attempts to hide it.
There is also presummed gay. 15 years back or so I had a friend who was very androgenous looking she was also flirty (initiating cuddling once at an outdoor concert …). I am very shy when it comes to all that so after awhile I got the courage to somewhat express how I felt attracted to her and wanted to go out with her. OMG that TOTALLY blew up in my face. We never talked again and she told everyone I was gay etc. I was so mortified by her reaction and humiliation of me that I never hit on someone I presumed gay again- not even to this day.
Jaz she may have been a self-loathing closeted lesbian. I have been there too. Do you still know her? Has she ever come out? Is she a raging homophobe? Just because you had the courage to admit your feelings does not mean she did and she may have just been trying to cover up the fact that she wanted it too but did not feel like it was ok. I had a not-so-straight friend who would kiss me with tongue when she was completely drunk and chase me around the bar trying to grab my nipples to the point that a gay male friend of mine had to tell her to back off. But one day when I brought her roses and told her I thought she was not entirely straight she berated me in front of a group of straight people and told me she was not a fucking dyke. But she still wanted me every time her inhibitions were quelled. It may not have been your gaydar that was off at all. She might just be lying to herself and there is nothing you can do about that.
Thanks Raye. You sincerely have a big sister heart for us CCL femmes and I genuinely appreciate that of you and of your character. Thank you big-hearted Raye. No we lost touch after that. She worked at a hole in the wall coffee shop where I use to go a lot. She humiliated me infront of people like that girl did to you too. It was awful. She also talked about it behind my back and I got anti gay comments from others. I bet she got presumed gay all the time because she was extremely andogenously good looking and very touchy feeling. That second part is why I thought it would be ok to tell her how I felt etc. Ironically I ran into many years later at another coffee shop. She said hi. Being a lady I said hi. That was it. OMG that girl flirting with you was a total horndog- “nipple” my my what did she think that someone would think? You better go buy those roses for Sarah and as the song goes “thank God for unanswered prayers”. Though I know u weren’t “praying” to meet that crazy drunk, nipple pulling, two different people flirt.
Merry Christmas 
to you and Sarah.
Oh Raye, you are soooo sweet. Thank you for clarifying why you don’t compliment me, but, here’s the rub: Even if you add the straight girl caveat “I am not trying to hit on you, I just wanted you to know…” as an out femme lesbian (can’t speak for the self-hating closets), I would be thrilled, bat my eyes at you, and say, “I’ve very flattered, you’re pretty cute yourself (grin)”. To straight girls I just say “Thank you, you’re very kind.”
Men never add the caveat. IMHO, you actually can get away with it without being creepy. Men can’t.
But I hear you, about femmes being the chameleon and you lovely and delicious butches being always right out there. My problem is that I am very friendly and warm and smile & laugh & joke a lot in general, and when I ramp it up for butches, they don’t seem to notice for the first, second, third, or fourth time… One young cute butch has FINALLY got that I think she is cute (even as I am happily married) after almost a year, and she finally blushed at me when she realized that she gets special treatment. Phew! Even as I kiss on the lips & hug my clearly lesbian friends who come in all the time.
I do think we need some code. And you either know it if you’re queer or you don’t. So we can let each other know. Any ideas? Honestly, the Kings and the Crips signal each other, why can’t we?
At the end of the day… We’re both females (well, most of us), and no one wants to put themselves out there. Who makes the first move seems to be a much more individual issue than we’ve given it credit. Yes, butches want to keep up appearances, but then it’s put on the femmes to be forward and put themselves out there first. And on the other hand, the femmes want the butches to hit on them. I guess we’ll all have to cultivate better flirting skills, and openness. That’s one advantage confident people have; it’s not that they’re not nervous, it’s just that they understand that everyone has the right and chance to say no thank you, and until you try and find out for sure- anyone could say yes.
Also, here’s a bit of my philosophy, modified to fit casual flirting:
You’re probably never going to see that person again in your life, so what they think of you will ultimately not matter or effect you- unless you allow it. And, if they aren’t going to become someone important to your world, why should it matter what they think of you?
Elegy I hear what you are saying and to a certain extent I agree with you but I consider myself a pretty confident person and I am sorry but rejection after rejection will wear upon you. I don’t care how confident you are. I know. I have been there. I always go for the femmes…. femme looking women are usually straight or at the very least bisexual. Repeated rejection whether it is a stranger or someone you know, wears on the ego. I have spent many years letting it roll off my back and trying again but gosh it would be nice if a femme would give me a damn break. That’s all I’m sayin.
PB good idea. I think star tattoos should be brought back… oh wait but the damn straight girls took that too. *sigh* oh well.
When a femme is flirting with me I never realize until the conversation is over. And even then I’m like nah, she wasn’t flirting, she probably has some gay friends or gay people in her family so she was being friendly. Femmes don’t make it easy for us to identify whether they’re gay/straight/Bi it’s confusing to us when a femme is talking to us because we don’t know what to make of it, often times we just leave without even thinking maybe she was into me, you guys can make it a little bit easier for us to identify which “team” you’re on LOL.
http://totallesbian.blogspot.com/
I have the opposite problem you do. I keep hitting on the straight girls! DAMN! I wish my gaydar worked!! Being a lipstick lesbian sucks sometimes! Straight girls are unfair. They flirt it up and make you think they’re generally interested until their boyfriends walk in!
AND ISN’T IT THE WORST WHEN THEY INVITE YOU TO HAVE SEX WITH THEM AND THEIR BOYFRIENDS?! Why do all straight girls assume that lesbian is code foy bisexual?! Two very different lifestyles here people!
Aaand… end rant.
Anyway, just wanted to shout my support. I feel your pain.