How do you feel about S&M?
Personally, I like it. Now this isn’t something I’ve talked about too much with a lot of people. But with my recent confession of exploring open relationships, I thought why not admit that nothing makes me cum harder then a firm hand around my throat? Surprised? Well you shouldn’t be. S&M is a world that I have dabbled in here and there throughout the years. Going between playing the dominatrix role to learning that I actually love the submissive role. Love, love LOVE it.
Of course this is a mood thing. It just so happens that I am often in the mood for a little rough sex. We were talking about this last time we were out with friends and I was trying to describe this particular prop I want to own. I can’t really find the correct name for it and was wondering if anyone knew the proper Googable term for it so I can find one and buy it! I googled sex horse, but some disturbing beastiality came up. Eeew. And then bondage props and bondage horse and I found a few pictures. Not exactly what I mean but close enough to give you all an idea:
Sort of like this …. Except I’ve seem ones that have a place for the knees to rest on, spread apart. And padded, so it’s more comfortable.
This is a little more like it. But the link that went this picture was a porn site. Not a store.
since CCL has some very diverse readers, I’m hoping someone can direct me to a store or website where I can find this one particular toy.
Now, onto other things. Who here likes to get spanked??
Tied up?
Choked?
Slapped? (btw, I am only talking about during sex, not abusive relationships)
Personally, I like it. Now this isn’t something I’ve talked about too much with a lot of people. But with my recent confession of exploring open relationships, I thought why not admit that nothing makes me cum harder then a firm hand around my throat? Surprised? Well you shouldn’t be. S&M is a world that I have dabbled in here and there throughout the years. Going between playing the dominatrix role to learning that I actually love the submissive role. Love, love LOVE it.
Of course this is a mood thing. It just so happens that I am often in the mood for a little rough sex. We were talking about this last time we were out with friends and I was trying to describe this particular prop I want to own. I can’t really find the correct name for it and was wondering if anyone knew the proper Googable term for it so I can find one and buy it! I googled sex horse, but some disturbing beastiality came up. Eeew. And then bondage props and bondage horse and I found a few pictures. Not exactly what I mean but close enough to give you all an idea:
Sort of like this …. Except I’ve seem ones that have a place for the knees to rest on, spread apart. And padded, so it’s more comfortable.
This is a little more like it. But the link that went this picture was a porn site. Not a store.
since CCL has some very diverse readers, I’m hoping someone can direct me to a store or website where I can find this one particular toy. Now, onto other things. Who here likes to get spanked??
Tied up?
Choked?
Slapped? (btw, I am only talking about during sex, not abusive relationships)
Could not find a sexy picture of a beautiful woman getting slapped in the face during sex. Huh? Makes me feel like I might be the only one that likes this!? Lol.
I’m totally curious about this and also wondering who likes to be the Dom and who prefers to be the Sub? And how does that, if at all, does that tie into your normal daily identity? By that I mean, is it totally opposite of what people would expect from you? Or exactly what people would assume??
Come on people. Let’s be honest. A little S&M never hurt anyone.
I’m totally curious about this and also wondering who likes to be the Dom and who prefers to be the Sub? And how does that, if at all, does that tie into your normal daily identity? By that I mean, is it totally opposite of what people would expect from you? Or exactly what people would assume??
Come on people. Let’s be honest. A little S&M never hurt anyone.
I thought that this was a known thing about you, not just with the pictures you post, or your FB, but your blog about the dominatrix, and most specifically the revelation blog about S and your friend (who’s alias name was Tony in the story). That was a bit dark to bring up, but I was more answering this: “I thought why not admit that nothing makes me cum harder then a firm hand around my throat? Surprised? Well you shouldn’t be.”
As for what I like… I find I’m a natural sadist, so it would be quite obvious for me to be the dom, but I also enjoy someone being worthy (I hesitate to say “powerful” because people often mistake “power” for “worth”). enough for me to be submissive to. It’s a world I enjoy exploring, but have yet to really have the pleasure outside my mind and some erotica.
In a sexual context! It seems I naturally dominate my friends and associates at one point or another. >.>
I was doing some searching- is what you’re referring to the “double bench” (I searched “BDSM Double Bench” and pulled up a similar looking piece of equipment). I also got a more similar item looking up “BDSM table bench.”
Im a M but sometimes i like to be the S as for B&D i have to seriously trust a person to tie me up or i panic but i love S&M =P
Elegy, of course you would know what I was talking about. Will google those new terms as soon as I get a chance.
And yes,I think most long time readers know I’m sort of twisted
but for the newbies that maybe haven’t read all the old blogs 
thank you tho, for pointing out how obvious I guess I make it!, lol. I hadn’t really realized that.
Ahhh … I did a search and found something close to what I want, under “dungeon furniture” called the Punishing Bench.
We need a house with a basement. So. Very. Badly. Heehee
To answer your question, I’ve also heard them called play benches.
Is either the one at the top or at the bottom of the page the sort of thing you’re looking for? http://www.slavetolove.co.uk/#/benches/4553727162
And hell no, you aren’t the only one who likes being slapped/slapped around by someone you trust and respect to control themselves! I used to be able to switch between the two roles with my one and only ex-gf, was dominant with the one guy who I tried it with, and I can be nothing but submissive now. I seriously start having tiny panic attacks if he starts acting sexually submissive towards me. I’m a future lawyer with control issues and I have a kind, sweet, shy, gentleman butchie. Then we get inside the bedroom door and our fun ends up exploding into fireworks. Lovely, lovely fireworks.
https://fetlife.com/
This is like facebook or myspace but its specifically for BDSM
I think I’m a total masochist. My past relationships are proof of that. But Remi is not into that really. She’s a really normal, healthy partner and I don’t think she really gets it. Plus she’s not into being mean to me, even if its a game.
…. Meh. …. It’s complicated.
I should have read this later…now I’m thinking about it and have to wait four hours for my love to get out of work.
Haha, sadomasochist with a dominant sadistic side and smooth undertones of masochism that I try to channel and limit to a purely healthy context. That’s how I’d choose to describe myself right now.
I hope you find that furniture! While I did see similar, I didn’t actually see any available to buy. Kristen’s link has similar, and when I searched “punishing bench” I came up with another similar image that lead me to the search of “spanking bench” which might just be what you’re looking for. Ah, Google.
*Kirsten, not Kristen, my apologies.
In other news, this “spanking bench” goes back a while:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Woman_on_Spanking_Bench_by_Malteste.png
@ Elegy It’s totally fine…I actually have a collection of ways to misspell my name., “Keirstyn” being my favorite
extremerestraints is a great website for toys and dom fun!!!! i can just window shop there and get excited! i don’t know if you have the toy shop there..but we have Eros in Texas! love love love that store!! they even a sex chamber where you can buy the types of fun items you’re talkin’!!
hair pulling and choking!
spanking? OH GOD YES!!! i get soaking wet from it!!
Tied up? please!!
slap? no thanks..
nipple clamps, hard vibes, dirty talk, spanking the pussy not just for the bottom
i think we all know i’m a total sub!
I am going to write to you as a true Alpha.
While your desire is clear, you are speaking of being submissive in a very superficial sense. In a very… “conventional” sense. This isn’t your fault, you’ve just never been taught different.
While chains and whips and horses are nice… they for a novice dominant to “control” a submissive, who has never really submitted.
If the woman you are with is still on this stage of needing tools and devices… my dear you have yet to meet your true Alpha female.
Because when you do, you will do as your told without chains, because you will be tied by her will. Her very presence will cause you to lower your eyes.Your heart will sink if you feel you have displeased her. The spankings and the hands around your neck you desire will come when SHE wishes them too, not you, and you will shudder to hear the words whispered in your ear ….”good girl”…
….and there are also, never ever, “safety words” because in the end she will never see that you are truly harmed, only trained.
That is all.
(And no, despite the name, I am not a male.)
Ok, here I go again with the whole resourcefulness thing (just call me Encyclopedia Brown), lol…
Being choked during sex aka erotic asphyxiation makes sense to me, it’s similar to when you are about to climax, it adds major intensity to it, if done right and can be quite euphoric.
The “prop” you are thinking of, is making me think of a sybian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybian), maybe this is what you are speaking of? If that isn’t right, try the porn site kink.com, which is a fetish/bdsm, etc site. Perhaps you will find all the props you are looking for on there. Oh and spanking you say? Check out Sinn Sage’s website, spanksinn.com, for erotic spanking. Oh god, I should probably stop.
Somewhat related, I’m also a total music freak, but if we are getting all specific with regards to S&M, industrial music, rhythmic music and powernoise music turns me on (all of sudden something inside me goes, “LET’S FLIRT, SEDUCE AND DOMINATE!!”) perhaps you may feel the same way? Here are a few examples:
1. Neikka RPM – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWeA1nztiRI&feature=related, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24_sriaQXm8
2. yelworC – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM4_UqpSWIs
Now picture this music, leather, seduction, teasing, grip vices… whewww!
If I had a Facebook, I would nag the management to add an ‘adore’ button so I could click it below posts such as this
.
Like Elegy, I would describe myself as a natural sadist (very, very aptly said, by the way, chapeau bas!), only without the submissive (or even sub-curious
) part. I am pretty sure at least some of my lovers knew what I was before I even realized it… to this very day I regret not recognizing the signals, not understanding all the encouragement. The thought of how disappointed these poor people must have been makes me want to kick myself in the face. Ah, the dreaded ghost of sexual faux-pas past… 
As for what people expect, well… some are surprised when I come out of Narnia with my orientation (or lack thereof
). To date nobody was surprised with the ‘whole sadism thing’. ‘So-what-else-is-new’ looks are the usual reaction.
Also, this is so heartening to see that after such a post not only no one is shocked, but some people help Sasha on her epic Quest for the Unholy Bench!
) Gotta love CCL.
SnM is not my thing but I fully support others in whatever “floats their boat”. Though I must admit I LOVE Sarah M’s part of her sentence “spanking the pussy” – OMG you know I LOVE the sound of that word! (Major blushing!) I am definitely NOT into “choking” or being tied up, but again I absolutely do not care if other
people do it/enjoy it themselves it’s just not my thing. Then again I am sure not everyone gets as turned on as I do from just hearing the word pussy lol (well maybe Sarah M is in my club on that one hehe). Life is about finding what works for YOU as an individual and evolving into your own uniquely beautiful self.
Haha, “sub-curious.” I like that term!
P.S. – Sasha You go girl- I see things have changed for you since your recent post about not wanting to/not feeling like opening up on CCL anymore.
S&M!!!! Oh no, my poor innocent, innocent eyes!
Hmm… the nearest I’ve come to BDSM is the 50 Shades of Grey trilogy. From that I think I’m more of a dom with ‘sub-curious’ undertones. I have fooled around with scarves though.
Ah hem …. Ivan …. Wow. I don’t know what to say to that except that I want to know more!!!
I refuse to read that 50 Shades of Grey tripe. I read a snippet and couldn’t decide whether to crack up laughing or toss my cookies. Blech.
So Novia, it’s been over 10 years since I read either of these, but if you’re interested in reading a book about S&M read The Story of O by Pauline Reage or The Sleeping Beauty Trilogy (The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty, Beauty’s Punishment and Beauty’s Release) by A. N. Roquelare (a pen name for Anne Rice). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sleeping_Beauty_Trilogy
Ah shit, so much for pretending I have innocent eyes. Dammit.
WWG, I was just going to ask how your innocent eyes are fairing on.
Tripe is a little harsh but I have to agree that the books can get ridiculous. The hopeless romantic in me refuses to write them off.
Thanks for the book recommendations, I’ll definitely check them out.
Hahah my innocent eyes are sleeping. My devilish ones are fully awake though
To be fair, I haven’t read the 50 Shades books, so maybe I should before dismissing them as tripe. But read the books I recommended and I think you’ll agree with me.
I forgot to mention in my comment, that you may want to check out some more resourceful books on BDSM and things of that nature here: http://www.greenerypress.com/ (which is co-founded by the other co-author of The Ethical Slut, Janet Hardy).
@WWG, Ah, that explains it.
I doubt you should read them. Any Anne Rice fan I know thinks that the books are a watered down version with a chick-lit spin.
Hmmm, that sounds curious. But from Ivan’s standpoint I absolutely do not want to be a sub, haha!
umm..i’m sorry? did everyone in here miss what Ivan said except for Sasha! holy bloody hell…
oh yessa masta!!!
@Novia – I think I’m going to at least peruse one of them in the bookstore soon just to know what everyone is talking about. Hell, I suffered through the first Twilight book because a former coworker insisted I had to read them.
@Ivan – I’ve always thought the heart of BDSM is about being able to read your partner thoroughly (and to have them know you just as well) and to press their buttons ever so lightly (or heavily if you’d like) to make them react. Yes, there are some pain sluts who will submit to just about anyone, but there are others who seek, respond to, and crave the intimacy of knowing their partner that way. And yes, when that happens, you (or they) react with or without tools.
Since we’re being up-close and personal, Sasha, could it be that you sense S&M tendencies in your current “crush” a.k.a Lena the bronze amazon warrior? See anything, some sort of recognition perhaps, sparkling in those greenish-amber eyes of hers? Hope I’m not being too forward .
How do we feel about S&M? I personally like to play a little rough occasionally. I could cuff and spank her a little when the mood is right; and I have choked her before, but only upon her request in the throes of passion. However, I draw a line at leather garters, torture contraptions and dungeons.
Forgive me. I think the more appropriate term is bondage machines, and not torture contraptions.
Ivan –
… it’s like you are a caricature…and I think you have to ‘get’ that the majority of the population isn’t into this as a lifestyle…or something uber-serious. There are versions of S&M just like anything else…some might be lighter or heavier, more ‘conventional’ or not, but I couldn’t help but laugh when you spoke of someone ‘tying a woman with their will’. The only way people obey is through volition (free will), force, or through genuine fear (which hopefully isn’t really present). It’s not an “Alpha Female,” or some kind of magic. It’s pretty basic and primitive.
Others –
I think it’s cool for people to be into whatever turns them on. I’m open to almost anything and it’s always surprising what you’ll like if you give it a shot. Personally, the only things I don’t/wouldn’t do are things that can ‘truly’ affect my long-term safety/health. Not into anything that can deprive my brain of oxygen over time because of damage for example, etc.. I love my little brain.
I don’t know if this helps anyone…but a great book on this was S&M 101 by Jay Wiseman…he’s a med school guy who thoroughly reviews safety, knots, how to tie, etc..and it’s a great resource. It’s the kind of manual it would be tough to find on your own I think but I stumbled across it one day and was glad I did.
@Jul – The link I provided, greenery press, is what Jay Wiseman and Janet Hardy co-founded together, just an fyi. It’s a good source for all this stuff and it mentions that book.
I LOVE this website!!
I love that you talk about everything! Why do so many people consider sex taboo and only done missionary style with the lights off! Let’s get down and dirty and have a REAL sex life!
People who know me in person would never think that I could be the one in charge, but I totally am! I can get a little violent (especially when drunk) but only in the confines of what is ok.
I’m a little devil..
hehehe..
But don’t we all have one inside?
My only complaint about CCL is there is not androgyne section. OMG there is some major sexiness on this site. Viva la pussy!
(hehe I couldn’t resist)
AHHHH damn iPhone typo- I wrote – “that there is not an erotica section” (and yes I made a typo so kiss my ass fucker you know who you are w your stupid typo comment to me previously) Viva la pussy!
Thank you Heather
And this blog sparked an unplanned adventure last night that was very …… informative??? lol …. I will tell you all about it as soon as I get a chance. But today is date day with my Lubby and she’s going to take me out today. Picnic by the beach, skateboarding down Ocean Blvd and then some shopping and a movie!!!! *YAYYYYYYYYY******
Days like this make me feel guilty for wanting a little S&M here and there. :/ I mean seriously, WTF do I have to complain about??? I feel like an ungrateful little bitch for some of the things I said last night to her . But that’s for another post.
Toodles peeps
Skateboarding down the blvd? I don’t know why, but it sounds extra romantic that you still do that, you don’t usually talknabout what your date nignts entail!
Also posting from my phone, typos be damned, haha. <3 Jaz!
Any good book refs for lesbian erotic:) me like very much
please good resources
AHHHHH Sasha please what is it with you and Sarah M calling yourselves “bitches”
you both are perfect to me. Come on now I know some REAL bit he’s and you two aren’t even on the same planet as them. Hugs
hell yeah i love it im the dom one and its totally what people might expect but you left out my favorite one BITING V”"”V
Personally, I like a little S&M. I am the complete sub and no one in my life would think so. Then again, no one would think my girl is the dominant one either. But behind closed doors, we are the opposites of what you would expect us to be.
A lil rough here and there is good. I’m def sub.
.
But know what I like?
Costumes.
As in corsets, bustiers, latex, etc. Anything that builds anticipation by making it that much more diffcult to get clothing off and get it on! lol
I like models like Dita Von Teese and Susan Wayland who portray thatkind of thing
And does that spanking picture feature Betty Page???
DD
Sasha, Sasha; don’t go around putting yourself down. I’m sure you feel bad for whatever you said but at least you said it and didn’t bottle it up; hence communicating
It makes you feel bad now but it was something that needed to be said/known. At least it’s in the open now and not festering yea?
Yes, that’s Betty. There are lots of such images, of which I’m pretty grateful for.
Damn, bdsm sounds so awesome. My girlfriend want to try that bt id have to play the s part nt m. And im scared of getting tied up bt i wouldn’t mind tieing her up
I friggin LOVE to be choked and spanked. I also LOVE to be bitten
My wife does this like low growl right before she bites me….mhhhm, just typing that made me wet…lol.
It’s called a sex wedge or something like that. Damn, my ex loved them but I can’t remember for the life of me what they’re called. I too am into BDSM and am kinda a switch. More on the dom side. I do like to submit if I’m in the right mood yet I manage it in a dominate fashion by commanding the submissive things be done to me >///< Saying something like "Yeah bitch, choke me damnit, harder!"
Ivan, you remind me of someone that I now despise. There is a difference between submitting during sex, and being their sex slave. The feeling of the chains on you, the gag that you really don’t need, there to force your mouth open, the pretending to fight it just makes it more fun! To KNOW you are truly held in place alone can bring an orgasm on or close to it. There’s a big Big BIG difference.
It is easy to control someone when they are tied up and gagged, when you are holding a whip over them, or when you are giving them what they want (most supposed submissives are the ones really in control, which defeats the purpose… no?) the real challenge is gaining complete submission by withholding what the submissive desires to the point where she is quite ready to burst.
Keeping her from getting what she wants immediately, forces her to go through all sorts of interesting emotions. She will plead, she will entice, she will get pissed off.
Once you give it to her however, it will come in a quick, terrifyingly predatory way… one that awakens the rabbit in her heart, one that wishes she made a safety word, one that makes her wonder if this is too dangerous… one that desires the teeth of the wolf around her neck, while also knowing that desire for the danger that it is.
The idea is to not just fuck the body…. but to fuck the mind.
The submissive will, in the end, find more release in truly letting go, than she will in any orgasm.
When you are the one that has her most intimate trust, yet despite that, can trigger an intense response of fear co-mingled with pleasure…
THEN you are the dominant one.
When played correctly, it is a beautiful, beautiful game.
“Once you give it to her however, it will come in a quick, terrifyingly predatory way… one that awakens the rabbit in her heart, one that wishes she made a safety word, one that makes her wonder if this is too dangerous… one that desires the teeth of the wolf around her neck, while also knowing that desire for the danger that it is.
The idea is to not just fuck the body…. but to fuck the mind.
The submissive will, in the end, find more release in truly letting go, than she will in any orgasm.
When you are the one that has her most intimate trust, yet despite that, can trigger an intense response of fear co-mingled with pleasure…
THEN you are the dominant one.”
This post in particular is the embodiment of confusing “power” with “worthiness” to me. I’m of the school of thought that you should not have someone fear for themselves, for their safety, or make them wish they had used a safety word. It’s a dynamic that can reach into the abusive spectrum if it comes without respect and care. The only “training” it reminds me of is the abusive mental conditioning, honestly. Maybe there’s a disconnect in the way you’re explaining it, as in I’d have to hear from a submissive’s stand point how much she loves and seeks it out, and how it gratifies her. As said before, to each their own.
That description is not at all reminiscent of what I view to be productive training (which, for the record is in a non-sexual context, but can be adapted), which also involves using one’s will to control another, to be the alpha.
I don’t think you understand, and my guess would be is because you are mistaking fear for a lack of trust, and you are also assuming that the one being controlled will not enjoy it.
Also, a truly dominant individual, does not try to shape or change the person they are with. That person is as free as they wish, and it is nature for the naturally submissive to gravitate to the dominant.
I say this, because a truly dominant person does not need the ego boost of abusing or “brain washing” their submissive. Abuse and “brainwashing” is not a dominant characteristic, it is a characteristic of a submissive who is TRYING to be dominant.
Again, there are some pretty vast misunderstandings and projections on the dominant and submissive relationship, mostly because, as I have said in the first post, very few, if any of you have actually encountered a truly dominant female.
Talking about things like this always strike a nerve in women, because we are taught that women are always the victim, always weaker. So despite feminism, and despite the fact that women are turning the Western World into their own… such, deep down ideas still flourish… because the first things that come to mind when you discuss REAL S&M with the uninitiated is that the women involved MUST be abused, or that there MUST be some sort of negativity involved, and that the dominant partner must be some barely restrained sadist out to harm. Often times the accusers own past is projected into this.
This vantage point is hardly true.
I totally get what Ivan is saying. I get it so much I wonder why I’ve never heard it articulated in such an eloquent way. Ivan’s comments are beautiful to me. I guess a lot of people don’t see it that way. And that’s fine, to each their own. No judgement here.
Different strokes for different folks. Again it’s all about open communication. Coming from an abused background I know I would not be interested in ever doing SnM. I am not saying that it is abusive because I don’t think it is if of course when both (all) involved are
eachother whatever works for everyone involved. Personally I have AWLAYS wanted my partner (if I had one sighhhh) to paint my entire naked body and me to her and then roll around making naked art canvases. Sigh…a girl can dream. Ok get on with your choking, tying up and slapping I need to buy body paint for my hope chest 
doing it freely. But because I know myself and I know my flashbacks even without involving something as “intense” as SnM. People can do whatever they and their significant other agree on. Knowing and respecting yourself and knowing and respecting your
partner are the keys. Slap, bite, pinch
Ivan should be the next guess writer. All in favor….
Ivan I completely agree with everything you said and I am totally in your corner on this one. However, the restraints are fun because it gives them something tangible to feel that is symbolic of the submission they have already embraced. And the only reason I even give a safe word is to provide the temptation to use one and to see the proof that they won’t. But believe me, you will have a lot of push back from some of the more self-righteous women on this site who have never WANTED and RESPECTED and DESIRED someone so much that all they want to do is TRUST and surrender completely. It is indeed a beautiful thing. And it is not abusive in the least.
by the way, hey Sasha
long time no see.
Ivan: “I don’t think you understand, and my guess would be is because you are mistaking fear for a lack of trust, and you are also assuming that the one being controlled will not enjoy it. ”
Myself:
“Maybe there’s a disconnect in the way you’re explaining it, as in I’d have to hear from a submissive’s stand point how much she loves and seeks it out, and how it gratifies her. As said before, to each their own.”
No, it isn’t that I’m assuming the submissive would not enjoy it (why would they be there if they did not?), it’s that there’s a disconnect in how you are explaining it. That’s why I proposed the need to hear the perspective of the submissive in this context.
As Jul said, “There are versions of S&M just like anything else…some might be lighter or heavier, more ‘conventional’ or not,” So to me it is bemusing when you put emphasis on “real”, as if tools make it fake or less real.
When Ivan said here, “Also, a truly dominant individual, does not try to shape or change the person they are with. That person is as free as they wish, and it is nature for the naturally submissive to gravitate to the dominant.” It immediately reminded me of what Jul said here, “The only way people obey is through volition (free will), force, or through genuine fear (which hopefully isn’t really present). It’s not an “Alpha Female,” or some kind of magic. It’s pretty basic and primitive.” I quoted her whole point, but the part it’s reminding me of is the very first part (their own volition, free will).
“Abuse and “brainwashing” is not a dominant characteristic, it is a characteristic of a submissive who is TRYING to be dominant.”
Agreed.
I really do think it’s a communication interruption. Of the posts I’ve quoted, there are certain perspectives that actually echo each other, they’re just positioned as if they’re contrary.
Sasha, you get it, so from a submissive stand point would you explain?
“Personally I have AWLAYS wanted my partner (if I had one sighhhh) to paint my entire naked body and me to her and then roll around making naked art canvases. Sigh…a girl can dream. Ok get on with your choking, tying up and slapping I need to buy body paint for my hope chest
”
LOL, Jaz! I think you found your own version of erotica, no words needed!
@Jazmenha – I have that painting each other’s body fantasy too, like from that movie Better Than Chocolate, have you seen that movie? Yeah, that describes it perfectly, lol.
Virgo and Elegy
(Great now I can not stop thinking about two hot naked women rolling around covered in paint. Pressing their colrful, throbbing, wet bodies against search other. Moving all around without a care in the world. Oh I digress, back to the SnM convo sorry. 
@Jazmenha – You’re so hot and bothered you misspelled “colorful” and “each other” with “search other.” What are you trying to search for, an orgasm? I’m sure once you search for that orgasm, rainbows will pop out of a certain “VAGinity” (my word for vicinity) and be very “colorful.” LOL! I’m laughing my ass off here.
Ivan, I have to ask, do you have a blog? After reading your comments, I wonder if you’ve written any erotica or share your S&M experiences.
No judgement from me, Babe!! I loved every bit of what you’ve had to say here. Thank you for sharing
I don’t want to “train”: anyone. She is my lover, not my dog
I mean no offense to you Ivan. I was in a very bad relationship like that though so the idea of someone being made a human self slave strikes a cord that makes me lose my temper. I was a dominatrix to the extreme till I was forced to be in that position in every aspect of my life, not just in the bedroom. You’d probably get along well with the person I’m referring too.
Though to anyone into erotica, I have a GREAT short story about lesbian slave lovers I think you all would love. Let me know if any of you want it. Sorry for the triple post.
Lesbian Erotica- Sasha did a little feature on The Dark Wife a while back and I think it’s realy good; though more romance than erotica.
Jazz- ‘diferent strokes for different folks’ LOLOLOL! That paint thing Totally a Scene from Better Than Chocolate!! If you haven’t seen it, please do at the next convienient opportunity- you will at least get to see the fantasy in action.
And the sex scene in a van while it’s being towed and in a stall at a club.
Also!!! Not to get off track but I like that BTC shows the trouble transgendered people go though- not just from heteros but from people within the gay community(the scene at the gay club) It’s a shame because we all have common goals and working with each other would be beneficial .
‘Stronger we are united, Weaker we are divided’ and such.
Virgo I obviously don’t give a flying fuck about my typos LMAO
@Jazmenha – Obviously not, but I’m still rollin’ here. I… yeah paint.. yeah.. um.. colorful… oh god… throbbing… oh god… kljw534lk;j241@##!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL! Hahaha.
Into SnM, not into SnM, Dom, Sub, paint, no paint, typos, no typos..whatever..people will ALWAYS judge but all that matters is you’re secure in yourself – embrace who you are ;well if you enjoy your own brace too much then people judge that too;) LOL
Brace typo LOL classic for this post (obviously meant embrace, damn I’m good at this typo thing- love it!!!)
Ahhhh!! Note on lesbian erotica. Want to know a great source?
Fanfiction.
Written for tv shows, movies, anime, manga, books, certain games, etc.
Basically I’m gonna use Harry Potter as an example.
So say you really like an idea of a same sex pairing with some hp chars. Let’s go with… I’ve seen a lot of people like Ginny and Hermione.
best fanfic:
http://www.fanfiction.net
So you can go there go to the regular category for books and filter the archive. You can choose the ‘couple’ you want, the genre, rating (only ratings up to T show up automatically…but yu can choose to display all,hence M ratings) and yadda yadda. But if you want to mix some random chick or whatnot from another series,click crossover category for books (or whatever) and same process. Hell you can even write one if you wat.You can write prequels, sequls, different char POV’s, rewrites of what you thougt shoud happn,….Anything really.
I’ve found some GREAT lebian erotica from pairings of my favorite media.
Virgo No need to be a bitch.
Thanks a lot. Now I’m just imagining braces and oral sex, that was a visual I didn’t need. I’m literally laughing out loud right now.
@Jazmenha – Did I offend? That’s not my intention, it was all in good fun and joking. I laugh at myself a lot and make fun of myself a lot, but then again not everyone does, so if I came off as offensive, I apologize. Anyways, I’m gonna mosey on out.
Virgo- Its all good.
I agree Ivan would be an amazing guest writer.
Ivan if you’re reading this, consider this your official invitation to be a guest writer on CCL.
Or if you have your own blog, share the link with us.
I second that invite for Ivan. Send Sasha an email asap and get on board. You’d bring a different perspective and lots of contributions as a CCL guest writer. My dog, Heart, and I endorse this candidate.
I’m all in favor of people having the right to do as they will in their personal lives but everyone here is trying very hard to be politically correct given the glamorized romanticization of the whole bdsm, d/s thing. It’s kind of an interesting topic that this circumstance even exists but that’s another matter altogether. There’s no way to spin bdsm to not be about superior/inferior dynamics and everyone keeps repeating the same thing, that it’s ok so long as the parties consent. This is hardly possible in any real sense of the word. There is no such thing as consensual violence nor consensual subjugation, those are both non-sequiturs. The act of consenting to either is sufficient proof that the individual lacks the capacity to do so. While there are some very extreme circumstances for which there are exceptions they always involve an altruistic goal, they’re also rare and not at all what’s being discussed here.
The argument that the practice is reasonable because the inferior derives some form of pleasure and therefore it requires no further inspection is disingenuous since it can only be valid if pleasure and harm are mutually exclusive, that if a person enjoys something they can’t possibly be harmed by it. It’s one thing to debate the weight of one against the other, it’s another thing to deny the question exists. In all cases of superior/inferior dynamics among adults the inferior is always harmed, the diminishment of an individuals autonomy is never beneficial to them, so the question of benefit versus harm has to be addressed. If one ignores the reality that indeed “there MUST be some sort of negativity involved” they are the last person that should be practicing it. That kind of ignorance is dangerous.
It’s no less ignorant to seriously proffer the idea that “the real challenge is gaining complete submission by withholding what the submissive desires.” That’s hardly a challenge, it’s the core of behavioral manipulation and modification. If it was that hard to achieve this goal then it wouldn’t be necessary for the military to spends hundreds of millions of dollars to train individuals to withstand the rigors of such circumstances. Coercion by any other name or for any supposedly beneficent purpose is still coercion and pretending it isn’t is dishonest at the very least. The same holds true for “When you are the one that has her most intimate trust, yet despite that, can trigger an intense response of fear co-mingled with pleasure.” It’s been understood for decades that effectively applied coercion will often result in the inferior reaching a stage of desiring the harm and trusting those that inflict it. To my knowledge no one studying this phenomena has ever claimed it to be advantageous.
These are not “vast misunderstandings and projections”, they are an accurate portrayal of a social dynamic. The question of judgement, whether this kind of behavior is right or wrong, wise or unwise within this specific context is an entirely different one but by no means unreasonable. I doubt anyone here would argue that there aren’t lines which people can’t be permitted to cross and that implies, at a minimum, an acknowledgment of the potential for harm. And that harm is potentially there for both parties, regardless of which side of the equation they’re on. There’s just no getting around it, this is something that comes with some very hard questions to answer which can’t be resolved with shallow, romanticized epithets.
Of course there’s a difference between those who want this to be their ‘lifestyle’ and the majority that are daytrippers, folks who dabble to ‘spice things up’ or ‘get a little kinky’. And many of the latter may believe these things don’t really apply in their circumstance. Maybe. Does the question of degree make the more basic questions unnecessary? Is it as simple as saying “It feels good” or “I’m not really hurting them”? Perhaps for some it is as innocent as that but it’s still likely to be prudent to first pose the question of why they’re doing it in the first place. And answers like “I’m an alpha” or “I’m a natural sadist” or “I like to be controlled” or “I like the excitement” are not one’s that inspire confidence for rational observers.
Last, I can’t fail to note the fallacy of : “[V]ery few, if any of you have actually encountered a truly dominant female.” The strongest, most powerful women I’ve ever met have also been the most humble and would laugh at the notions of ‘dominance’ espoused. There have always been lots of them and they’re easy to find. You just have to pay attention since they have no need to wear such attributes on their sleeve.
In his introduction to Mother Night, Kurt Vonnegut said “We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.” There’s great wisdom in that.
Jennifer, while there are a few parts of your comment I could debate (if I were not so spent on this topic currently), I do appreciate it. It’s a different perspective and I enjoy the dialogue these posts have inspired.
I don’t want to get into a debate over SM on any sort of societal, anthropological or moral stand. I freely admit several things: 1. That I like an Agressive lover. 2. That I am new to SM … I think? 2. That I want to do some more reading and learning about this and about myself and if this has any place in my life. 3. The jury is still out. I am intriqued.
But I don’t know if SM is the proper term for what I want and like.
I think there is a wide range of degrees and perhaps the trem “day tripper” is appropriate here. I’m not ashamed to want to learn more.
I am however worried or maybe even disagree with some things people are saying here that it is abusive, no matter how you spin it. I don’t agree with that at all. But if someone finds that offensive and abusive, then for them it would be.
But I don’t think it’s fair to blanket an entire group of people with negative morality based judgements that are purely subjective. (which I bet, those making those judgments don’t believe their belief is subjective, but rather fact. Again very debatable.)
I urge everyone on here to try to be open minded. If its not for you don’t do it. But don’t try to categorize others by your moral standards.
Live and let live.
Jennifer, I love how in depth you got there. See, what Ivan speaks of is a slave/mistress relationship which from what I know, I don’t think either of you would truly enjoy. Been there so I can spot them. It’s fun for play, but not your whole life. After a bit, it’s no longer about the sex at all
It is not necessary for someone to submit in all aspects of their lives, in order to fully submit in the bedroom. Submission is an act of will and a distinct act of trust. Therefore it can be turned off and on. It is possible to be equals in a romantic relationship in every other aspect of your life and yet fully submit sexually. A “lifestyle” is simply the way a couple chooses to conduct all aspects of their relationship. We all live a lifestyle. Trying to discount the sexual experiences of others as inferior to your own is pretentious and snobbery. The same could be said about those who criticize the dynamics of dominance and submission. What I got from Ivan is the agreement that a truly dominant person does not call herself/himself a “dom” nor do they use it as an identity. It is just a heavy aspect of their personality. I would never refer to myself as a “dom”. But I am as type A and aggressive as it gets. I don’t subjugate my partner in my relationship, rather I prefer a strong, mature, self-confident and self-reliant woman in a romantic relationship… which is why I have been talking to a woman who is only 11 months younger than me. She is strong, intelligent, articulate, funny, confident and beautiful. I wouldn’t want her any other way and I love it when she puts me in my place. But in the bedroom..(and under restaurant tables) she is going to spread her legs for me when I barely brush them with my fingertips and she would trust me to have my way and know that her surrender will not leave her abused in any way. And even though I might cuff her or tie her up for the fun of feeling restrained, I know that she WANTS the feeling of being out of control from time to time and trusts me to take that control and take her because she knows I won’t take her any further than I recognize that she can go and wants to go. Assumptions about something you have never experienced and/or don’t understand make you sound self-righteous and frankly ignorant. Anyone that KNOWS me in person, knows I have never abused a woman and never would… not even close. You just don’t know.
Raye (and some Ivan) –
You explain yourself well, and thanks for that – unlike Ivan who seems to think there is a particular way of expressing S/M or one ‘proper’ way that involves no ‘props’, you seem to make allowance for flexibility…which is, really, the essence of human experience. We all fall somewhere on a continuum. Some, clearly more on one end than the other…with some of us shifting as we please.
Ivan’s notion of some ‘true Alpha’ was humorous to me…the only time I’ve ever heard that term ‘true Alpha’ was when I was taking my young dog to puppy obedience class. So, that’s the association it has for me…giving my dog pieces of hotdog. I just can’t take that seriously…unless maybe being my dog’s pack leader is a turn-on to my gf…but I’m guessing not.
I like to see myself as a cognitively and emotionally flexible person…I’m not confined to a role, and my preferences can shift. I love strong women, as you do….and I don’t think of her spreading her legs at a restaurant as ‘submissive,’ it’s just what I like – and heck, if it gets her hot, I’d do the same.
Some people like ‘roles.’ I think it makes them feel safe and comfortable. Ivan, that’s what I get from you…it’s your safe space…and everyone should feel comfortable. I’m glad you have that, and I’m sure there are some women who feel just as ‘safe’ in their submissive role.
Just realize that some of us are more flexible in what we like, our preferences are different, and frankly – I’m already someone’s ‘true Alpha’ in my life (my dog) and you’re right…she really does submit to my will without ‘props,’ just from words alone.
…I like my girlfriend, on the other hand, with a little more fire.
Are you people seriously debating on S&M?? Try it! You might LOVE it! I know I do! And have yet to have anyone complain about it to me.
Each relationship is it’s own. Within the comfort/trust of the couple. You fuck with that comfort all hell breaks loose. I’ve experienced it many times outside the bedroom. If I don’t trust a butch outside the bedroom…not gunna happen behind those closed doors.
A BIG thing for me is communication. If we can’t talk about everyday things and how we feel…how am I suppose to talk to a butch about sex and what I’d like to try in the bedroom?
I prefer things very kinky! Rape scenarios, naughty role playing, spanking, and have even had fantasies involving cutting. Wax seems a little juvenile to me and I don’t see the appeal in it. Cutting for some reason is a complete trust in your partner. I’m very much against the actual act of rape. Being a rape victim myself. But, the idea of another being taking that control of you makes me want to explode orgasmically!
I spend all day every day taking control of my life and kicking ass. The bedroom is the one place I want to let go. It is the only place I can let go.
Very well said Jul
Jul, to be clear I do understand and do not completely disagree with Ivan. As for the leg spreading, it was a light reference to a visceral sexual response without getting too detailed. Maybe one day I will write my own blog on that but for now, I try to be discreet with my sexual preferences. Bitch in Heels is exactly correct. I agree that some women who are used to taking charge in all other aspects of their lives, get a welcome release that comes with allowing themselves to give over control of their entire bodies and minds in the bedroom. And I don’t care what twisted little scenarios are in her head, I will play her little game if it makes her explode for me. Besides, usually my thoughts and desires are going to be even dirtier and dare I say offensive to a large portion of women on this site. But thank God there are those women who love it and even crave it. Those are the ones I seek out… and many times I don’t even have to because they feel it in my energy and seek me out first…
Jul I agree with you. Now I am picturing sexy naked women wearing nothing but red super hero capes yelling “I AM the alpha dog!!!” LOL
LMAO jaz! Now I’m picturing that and busted up laughing in my livingroom after going “oh! Hmm, yeah…. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHA!” Guests are super confused
I think Jennifer has an interesting point; whether it’s possible to be involved in SM and come out unharmed. There are many things we can consent to, or choose to do, that are harmful. I’m not sure if I think SM is, but as someone who has always felt pulled to it, I haven’t gone too far into it as the people I’ve been with just haven’t had it in them. And I’ve wondered if the ones who do have it in them can, outside the bedroom, be kind and respectful people. And whether it’s possible to maintain an equal relationship outside the bedroom.
Sasha, here’s a link I think you might find interesting:
http://clarissethorn.com/blog/2010/06/30/love-bites-an-sm-coming-out-story-mirror/
I agree with Ivan, may come across a bit rough around the edges and not as eloquent in her speech as Raye. However, what she describes is truly what sm is about. Props aren’t needed, although they are fun once and a while. Its all completely about trust and respect…don’t knock it until you try it.
SM is short for sadomasochism Lee which is but a small subset of BDSM. Some of that fetish is the actual bondage itself and some people are turned on by the feeling of the ropes, chains, collars etc. It is not a “prop” Sometimes the actual sexual stimulant IS the physical bondage without sex at all. SM is sexual arousal by either the infliction or receipt of pain. A sadist inflicts pain while a masochist craves it. Ivan is right that true submission needs no restraints. But that is beside the point. Fetishes come in all variations and to ridicule someone or tell them their preferences are somehow inferior or less valid is asinine. I have known many women to submit to me fully with no need of “props” as Ivan likes to call them, but to deny the use of physical bondage based on the belief that it isn’t necessary is like foregoing a gourmet meal with your favorite foods to prove you can live off of mac & cheese. You might prove a point but you are denying yourself something you might derive pleasure from. In fact Ivan’s point was off topic completely. As much as I agree with Ivan’s point about submission, the original post was about BDSM which envelops MANY different fetish scenarios none of which are superior or inferior to Ivan’s experiences… everyone’s sexual expression is VERY personal. I am not knocking anything Ivan is saying, I just think it was put across in a snobbish manner… which may or may not have been intentional. I am very confident in the bedroom but I also know that I am not the only person in the world who is good at sex… and I try like hell not to come across that way. I have yet to find the person who could top me and I have no trouble whatsoever getting a woman to submit. Does that mean I am going to tell Ivan she is full of shit? No. At a very deconstructed level I understood her and agreed with her. However, did she do that to essentially every woman on here who expressed a desire to dabble in the world of BDSM? Yeah she kinda did. In that respect, she brought it on herself. But I’m still in her corner.
@Raye – Amen and agreed completely.
Wow, whoah. I am a bit late to the party – or rather, I missed the second part of the debate – but still…
@Ivan – while I do understand where you are coming from, your self-proclamation as a ‘true Alpha’ does come off as pretentious. Do I have something against you, or the person I perceive you to be from your post? No. I do not know you, and thusly would not judge you. What I speak against is the claim that there is a ‘true’ and ‘untrue’ way to do things, ‘superficial’ and ‘profound’ BDSM, a ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ that applies to sex. To be perfectly honest, this mindset reminds me (if only slightly) of the train of thought that probably had led to the introduction of the infamous ‘sodomy laws’. I do not think such matters should be up for discussion at all, apart from trading tales and exchanging experiences without passing any judgment.
@Jul, great, great comment. The second paragraph made me feel like you spoke for me as well, using far better wording and a clearer style than I would have. Chapeau bas!
@Bitch In Heels – I am EXTREMELY sorry to hear about your painful experience. You seem to have come out of it with lots of strength, and for all ’tis worth, I applaud you for that.
Okay, I’ve debated for a while on whether or not to even comment. I don’t like debates, and Sasha, if you feel like any of this is out of line please feel free to delete my comment. However, as a lifestyle submissive, I feel like I have to speak up in response to Jennifer’s comment, particularly a couple of points that represent the kind of thought process that has continually marginalized and misrepresented my community.
Quote from Jennifer: “Perhaps for some it is as innocent as that but it’s still likely to be prudent to first pose the question of why they’re doing it in the first place. And answers like “I’m an alpha” or “I’m a natural sadist” or “I like to be controlled” or “I like the excitement” are not one’s that inspire confidence for rational observers.”
First of all, rational is in the eye of the beholder, and none of us owe any “observers,” rational or otherwise, answers about the dynamics we enjoy in the bedroom or anywhere else, for that matter. But at the very least, you could ask instead of putting those answers in our mouths. I’ve studied psych at the graduate level and I can tell you, the people I worry about most are the ones that are completely out of touch with their own natures/desires (read: repression.)
If you don’t like the psychology behind BDSM, Jennifer, it’s all good. If you have questions about why someone would practice it, that’s great. Knowledge is power. However, the condescending, passive-aggressive “poor women who don’t know what’s good/bad for them” tone in your post is exactly what fuels societal ignorance about my subculture. It is not mature, curious discussion; it is patronization. I might wear a collar for my dom, but I will not be patronized by people who won’t even take the time to understand the lifestyle they criticize.
I am a grown woman and I make my own decisions. One of those decisions is being submissive to the woman I love: my dom, my fiance, my mate, which is something that greatly adds to the intimacy of our relationship (emotionally, psychologically and otherwise). A level of trust and intimacy exists between us that, quite frankly, you will never understand unless you keep an open mind and ask questions.
I’m just tired of vanilla people assuming that all female subs A) are not strong enough make our own decisions and are somehow coerced and “manipulated” into SM by our big, bad doms B) are not smart enough to know what is and isn’t harmful to them C) are really just abused women who don’t know it and D) need some White Knight of Political Correctness to save us from ourselves.
“[sic] everyone keeps repeating the same thing, that it’s ok so long as the parties consent. This is hardly possible in any real sense of the word.”
Oh, really now? Maybe it’s because I’m a poor, helpless, intellectually challenged submissive but I just can’t remember giving up my free will. The notion you put out there that there IS no such thing as consensual submission or “inferiority,” as you phrase it, is not only offensive to submissives but to abused women as well. I’m a survivor of sexual/physical/verbal/psychological abuse and let me tell you, there is a whole hell of a difference between abuse and the loving, consensual, trust-filled power exchange that I share with my fiance. And I, along with most submissives, am smart enough to tell the difference between PE and abuse. I don’t need you to do it for me. If someone can’t tell the difference, they need to educate themselves.
Comments like this are the reason people remain so ignorant about SM. If you want to know why we do what we do, if you want to know what’s going on in our heads, if you want to know if we’re psychologically healthy then *ask a submissive.* We’re people, really! Even us lifestylers tend to have the modicum of book learnin’ it would take to explain our lifestyle to the curious, “rational observer.” However, making harmful assumptions, belittling and then negating the reality of our choices is so much worse than what you’re claiming our doms do. I don’t blame you, I blame the fact that there are few people out there who understand BDSM as a “daytrip“, never mind a lifestyle and even fewer who truly understand what it means to be a submissive. Sadly, I don’t think that will change anytime soon.
S.Maschera- It was a very long time ago. Thank you. I’ve had many troubling life experiences and take them all by the horns! Hence the name, Babe.
Kat… that was perfect. Well done darlin. Damn.
Thanks for sharing that, Kat.
Oh, Elegy – and I quote…”As for what I like… I find I’m a natural sadist, so it would be quite obvious for me to be the dom, but I also enjoy someone being worthy (I hesitate to say “powerful” because people often mistake “power” for “worth”).
Worthy is a great term pertaining to you, beautiful woman! I don’t think I’ve ever met such a woman that portray’s the rich qualities. you project. And, I am not (contrary to other folks’ belief’s) trying to troll on you. Just that you are so intelligent and heartfelt with your comments to others! It’s like you and Jazz are two pieces of a sweet pie…
FYI – remember I already told you about falling. And, now girl, with this you are trying to work on my last
resolve…shame on you!
Hahaha, yes, I remember that! Poor you, haha! But lucky for you as well that you’re on the other side of the coast. And I know you’re not trolling on me, but don’t go getting crush-struck either! That’s for your sake.
And didn’t you know from my introduction post?: I’m shameless. =P
Kat very well written. Jazz (and Heart)
Kat, beautifully said! If you don’t mind, could I ask Sasha for your email address? I have A LOT of questions…
Well said Kat.
@Kat
Nothing you said refutes one word of what I wrote and in fact you’ve argued only points I never made or that you’ve conveniently misinterpreted. Let me restate it this way for you and perhaps it will be simpler and clearer.
Bdsm (or whatever acronym you prefer) is very black and white in one respect. Either the danger is real or it’s not. To be real it requires the actual threat of physical violence or psychological harm. The submissive must believe the danger exists and that the person making the threat is capable of carrying it out. The dominant must really be able to do so or to be able to fully convince the submissive that they are. Whether or not you want to classify that as abuse is not even at issue and I never said anything in that regard one way or the other. What I stated was that this kind of consent is evidence of the individuals lack of capacity to do so. You are welcome to disagree, that argument has been made for centuries and while it’s most starkly used against women it has been applied no differently to men. This isn’t a question of gender or gender politics and conflating it that way is no more than a smokescreen for a flawed argument. The point is straightforward, if you control another person through fear or physical coercion you cannot claim that they agreed to it.
This leaves the other possibility, that it’s not real. No one is supposed to be injured in any way, it’s all just make believe, play acting where agreed limits are established in advance. That, however, does not remove the potential for harm. I’ll set aside the possibility of honest human error, something going amiss that physically harms a person in a serious albeit unintended way, but if you’re choking someone or using a whip on them that possibility can’t be denied. That aside, someone still wants to pretend to be in danger, pretend to submit or pretend to control another. You may take offense to the use of the word pretend, that it’s not pretend at all and it’s me that’s not getting it but if you do that then you’re saying the threat is real and that you believe your physical or psychological safety can be at risk. It’s one or the other, either you’re at risk and therefore cannot consent or you’re not at risk and can walk away at any time without consequence in which case it’s play acting. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
As I stated, it’s certainly possible for this type of behavior to be innocent where neither party is harmed. My second point was simply that desiring this, at a minimum, is worthy of close examination, that it’s not something to be entered into on a whim. The fact that we desire something or derive pleasure from it doesn’t automatically make it good for us. There are nearly infinite possible motivations for desiring either role many of which can be good reason for one or the other to not engage and it’s entirely possible that neither is aware of the real motivation that lies beneath the surface, especially for the other. Once again, this isn’t necessarily going to be true in each and every case and I never said as such nor did I offer a moral judgment. What I did say is that just because this involves sexuality, something this particular audience is especially sensitive about and loathe to appear being in favor of questioning the expression of, or because bdsm is so very hip these days, neither give it a free pass. SSC and RACK both lack the crucial element of “Why?” If you believe that doesn’t matter, that introspection and self-awareness are worthless goals or that the need to understand our motivations for doing the things we do increases with the risk attached is unfounded then there’s not much to discuss.
I think you’re starting your argument with an assumed premise that can either be false, or only true when it meets a narrowed criteria. It doesn’t allow for discussion because it does not entertain possibilities outside of the premise.
“There is no such thing as consensual violence… those are both non-sequiturs. The act of consenting to either is sufficient proof that the individual lacks the capacity to do so. ”
“To be real it requires the actual threat of physical violence or psychological harm. The submissive must believe the danger exists and that the person making the threat is capable of carrying it out. The dominant must really be able to do so or to be able to fully convince the submissive that they are.”
“Anyone is capable of anything given the right set of circumstances.”-Zach Fortier, Curbchek
I left out the part about subjugation since we’re discussing voluntary submission, not pure coercion. From the first post, you don’t actually elaborate on your reasoning why persons consenting to a dom and sub relationship exhibit a lack of capacity to give consent. You’d first have to define why (I have my guesses, but I’d rather you define it in your own words so I don’t waste time arguing unrelated and assumed points). If, for example, one were to say that someone consenting to something that is “bad” or “harmful” to them, that they are then determined unfit to give consent, then it is a very rigid and invalidating definition. It would also allow for people to absolve themselves of the responsibilities for their actions, much like those who are legal unable to give consent can drop contracts at will without consequence. However that’s just anecdotal. People give consent all the time throughout their daily lives. I am not addressing whether or not what they’re consenting to is “good” for them, but that they can give consent, and that they’re consent is valid. They can enter and leave these contracts at will.
It’s not a mutually exclusive concept for two people to, sexually, enter into a contract where the violence is both measured and real, however it can stop at any time. “The point is straightforward, if you control another person through fear or physical coercion you cannot claim that they agreed to it.” I would say that yes, you can say they agreed to it in this context. The sexual violence was not sudden, it was deliberate and sought out by both parties, and they did not enact this scenario until they gave consent- consent that was given prior to any BDSM-related sexual activity taking place. Both persons would be capable of giving consent without coercion, and of discussing their terms. Whatever happens within those terms is no less real because a limit has been agreed upon.
“If you believe that doesn’t matter, that introspection and self-awareness are worthless goals or that the need to understand our motivations for doing the things we do increases with the risk attached is unfounded then there’s not much to discuss.”
Again, I think you’re starting from a false premise. In this particular blog (in which the finer points of examining one’s motivations was not the focus) and from some of the comments themselves, there is a shown desire to learn and explore these scenarios. Whether or not you see the motivations discussed isn’t important, that is a privilege. Your not seeing them and not being privy to the finer points of self exploration does not mean they are not being examined- it just means you’re seeing the current result.
You also come at this from the position that the defense of, deficit of criticism of, or interest in this subculture is due to people being too PC.
“What I did say is that just because this involves sexuality, something this particular audience is especially sensitive about and loathe to appear being in favor of questioning the expression of, or because bdsm is so very hip these days, neither give it a free pass.” “I’m all in favor of people having the right to do as they will in their personal lives but everyone here is trying very hard to be politically correct given the glamorized romanticization of the whole bdsm, d/s thing. It’s kind of an interesting topic that this circumstance even exists but that’s another matter altogether. There’s no way to spin bdsm to not be about superior/inferior dynamics and everyone keeps repeating the same thing, that it’s ok so long as the parties consent.”
I don’t think this is the case. I think it’s a conversation between people who participate, and those who do not. If no one brought up criticisms of someone’s sexual choices, it would be a mistake to assume that their lack of commentary has anything to do with why you’ve chosen to comment.
Jennifer I assume you discourage skydiving as well… ya know the presence of danger to the self and all. Tell me is the plane the abuser or the ground? Or would I be abusing myself since the idea of skydiving as exciting is motivated by fear?
Ok ladies, I know Sasha doesn’t want arguing so you guys better knock it off before she has to step in. She has other more important issues on her plate
I disagree, with the above statement. I don’t see it as “arguing.” I view it as intelligent individuals, expressing their interesting opinions.
@Elegy
The inability to form consent arises when an individual is deprived of the ability to decline without consequence in the extreme. In this specific context, in order for consent to be valid individuals must have the ability to walk away free from retribution. In other words, your consent is meaningless if it’s attained through the threat of bodily harm. For example: If someone says they won’t date you anymore unless you agree to a specific sexual act then you are free to walk away and if you agree then you have obligated yourself. This differs from contract law in that you still retain the ability to withdraw your consent at any time. Alternatively, if someone says that if you don’t agree to a particular sexual act they’re going to punch you in the face until you bleed, any consent you offer is immaterial. I agree that people consent to things that may not be in their best interest all the time but the first question is how was the consent obtained. It really comes down to the old expression “Well, did someone put a gun to your head?” If the answer to that in any reasonable figurative form is yes then your consent is invalidated.
“The sexual violence was not sudden, it was deliberate and sought out by both parties, and they did not enact this scenario until they gave consent- consent that was given prior to any BDSM-related sexual activity taking place. Both persons would be capable of giving consent without coercion, and of discussing their terms.” Let’s put an example to this. You take an ad out on Craig’s List looking for someone to break your ribs while you get yourself off. You get a response, the two of you meet, discuss how the rib breaking is going to occur, agree on a time and place and both consent to the activity. Perhaps the rib breaker even asks “Are you sure you want to do this?” And the breakee clearly and emphatically says “Yes, I’ve always wanted to experience an orgasm while having my ribs broken.” Specifically, you’ve left a long and exhaustive paper trail of the consent. After the fact when the rib breaker is arrested for aggravated assault the prior consent of the harmed is not valid and can’t be used as a defense.
We can consent to all sorts of really stupid things and all of us do it on annoyingly regular basis for which we often end up kicking ourselves. But when it comes to bodily harm there are severe limits on what one may consent to. Most notable is our inability to consent to be harmed by another person. The defense of “They consented in advance” just doesn’t work when it comes to people causing physical harm to each other. This distinguishing feature of the harm, that it was intentionally caused by another person is what differentiates it from other dangerous activities and invalidates the consent.
On your thoughts regarding my comments on self-awareness, I’d actually agree with you. The initial post was not really about this and I agree that there’s no way to know what goes on behind the scenes in any specific case. This is why I didn’t bother to comment initially. I chose to voice my concerns (likely to the dismay of most) when the discussion became more generalized about the wonders of bdsm, alphas and fantasies about cutting. I thought it appropriate for a different perspective to be heard. I don’t have much of an opinion regarding Sasha’s specific desires and since I’m not a personal friend of hers I wouldn’t voice them if I did. But in a public forum where it’s obvious that many turn looking for opinions, both sides of a complex issue such as this need to be heard and my comments on self-awareness really amount to the need to ask a single question: “Why do I want to do this?”
With your last point, I’m afraid you lost me. I’m honestly not sure what you were saying so I’ll leave it alone.
Thanks, guys! I’m sorry, I usually don’t get into it with people but I’ve already seen this type of misinformation from well-intentioned people who speak on “authority” about my lifestyle, without really knowing the facts, do so much harm that I feel like it’s necessary to put the actual information out there.
Absolutely beautifully said, Raye and Elegy. You both make some amazing points.
@ Novia, sure! I don’t mind at all, ALWAYS happy to answer questions!
Sasha, I’d like to make a point-by-point rebuttal to Jennifer’s… thesis on my lifestyle, but like Butch Kitty said, this is your site and I don’t want to step on any toes or derail things. So I’ll wait to post a reply until I get the go ahead (or not, I absolutely love this blog and I’ll respect your wishes either way.)
@ Novia, Hi again! Sorry for the confusion, but I clicked on your name-link to your blog and it seems like you are probably a minor. I’m sorry, but I’m not comfortable discussing the topic with anyone who is not over 18 for legal and ethical reasons. Please understand this is nothing personal at all, I just have a general policy against email correspondence with anyone who isn’t a legal adult, particularly with regard to such topics.
Ricki: Agreed, there’s a difference between arguing for argument’s sake, and having a constructive argument as a debate. At least between Jennifer and me there are no personal insults, we’re disagreeing and expanding on our points.
Plus, I don’t get how it’s off topic when literally the first sentence is: “How do you feel about S&M?” We’re not all going to agree, however it is a discussion.
*laughs at “Butch Kitty” telling us to “knock it off” lmao!!! omg. SMDH
Here’s how it is off topic Elegy… When someone asks how do YOU feel about SM? It does not mean how do you feel EVERYONE ELSE should feel about it.
Kat, the point of this blog is to share, discuss and debate. I’m not Sasha, but I say go right ahead.
@Jennifer – “The inability to form consent arises when an individual is deprived of the ability to decline without consequence in the extreme.” I think this is what you’re not getting – BDSM is SPECIFICALLY about consent. In fact, the major phrase for BDSM is “safe, sane and consensual.” If you decline an action prior to or within a scene and the top/domme goes ahead anyway, that’s no longer BDSM. THAT is abuse.
A safe word is so that one can enjoy a scene but should the scene get too intense, despite it having been within the negotiations of their limits, that they can stop it IMMEDIATELY. That’s why safe words are generally NOT words like “no” or “stop” but something completely different such as “asparagus” so there is no miscommunication of intent and desire.
There are many who have been the victims of abuse in childhood or even adulthood who turn to BDSM because they DO get to have control, and limits and most of all, be respected. What many don’t understand is that the sub has the control, because they have tested and seen that the domme is trustworthy and they have CHOSEN to give their trust to this domme. A good domme will always be intimately aware of the sub and the sub’s reactions, needs, etc.
Think of the times you’re kissing your partner, and you see she is into it, so you start heading down her body, and you kiss her breasts, and then you start heading down to the fun zone, and she freezes up and/or says no. While this is not the exact same thing, it is similar in that in the middle of a “scene”, she is capable of giving or refusing consent. If she refuses consent and you continue, then you are heading towards abuse/abusing her body.
Everyone I know involved with BDSM (myself sort of included) is ALL about communication, negotiation and safety. If they’re not, then good god do NOT play with that person. Step away. And if they threaten bodily harm if you do not, then call the police because they are NOT respecting you and your limits.
@Lee “Butchkitty – No one has devolved to namecalling, trolling or anything else. This is a healthy discussion, not an argument. There’s a difference.
The fun has completely been drained out of this topic. Way to go!
I say, why not? Go ahead and enjoy each other!! Put a little spice into your relationship
Right on, Kay
And also I enjoy spankings, restraints, slapping, and I’m occasion choking. Both receiving and giving. I know that there is so much more but I have only dabbled a slight bit..
Typo- * on occasion not I’m occasion. Damn auto fill
Imagine this- a huge warehouse party we all paid equally “investment” to have. There was one section for SnM but I put a pad lock on it because, despite the fact I’ve never tried it, that is not MY thing. Therefore no one else can choose (for their own adult selves) to go into the SnM
room. Does that make any sense? No it doesn’t! We ALL come to this “party” called life. We ALL have “investments” in our relationships (vested interest in connecting to our significant others) that we are serious about. It is totally fine to not be into SnM. Where it’s not ok is when you put a “padlock” on someone else’s “warehouse room” in their life with their adult mutually freely participating lover. On the other room in the warehouse party is a giant naked painting session where I tell everyone they have to paint eachothers naked bodies with the color blue even though there are SO many more colors. Yeah that’s a party host people will really enjoy having around. Yeah, NOT! .Because blue is MY favorite color that does
not mean I have the right to not allow other colors to be used. Last time I looked, the rainbow is beautiful because ALL the beautiful colors unit. Each person has the individual right, each couple has the couples right to celebrate their party/life how they want.
Amen Jazz!
@Kat, it’s ok, I am actually 21, with ID and everything. If you still don’t feel comfortable about it then we can leave it be.
I do love BDSM. I agree that rough sex is very titillating. Finding others in my area that are into it however proves to be something akin to solving a Sherlock Holmes mystery. I so crave a sadistic Butch Dom. I’m beginning to think that they are more like a unicorn. We’ve all heard about them, but no one has actually seen one. lol
@ JAZZ – What did Virgo mean when she wrote: kljw5341k;j241@##!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LOL!Hahaha.
Have a wonderful holiday season FL.