By Guest Blogger, RadDyke
Well…I know I’ve been disappeared. My computer got a virus, and then I was back at Cowgirl’s (the land of no internet) for a few weeks. But I’m back online now…and back to writing. Before I start a 30 day blog challenge over at my blog (and for me, that will be quite a challenge), I wanted to put pen to paper (uh…fingers to keyboard) over here a bit.
So today, I want to talk to you about those in the community who don’t identify, and having relationships with them. This does stem from a personal part of my life, but it’s something people ask me about all the time, so I wanted to write about it. A long time ago, I wrote about it over on my blog, but a year or two later into my relationship with Cowgirl, I think it’s time to re-examine it. I’m going to write about our personal identities, not because I feel like they’re important for you knowing me, but because I’d really rather talk about someone I know (us), than try to speculate about the identity politics of strangers. I do identify as queer, or a dyke, or really however you want to label me. For me, words are words. That’s really all they are. My identity is fairly fluid, but I don’t mind labels, even if they don’t fit me right at that time. Cowgirl, on the other hand, is adamant about not being labeled. As anything. Ever.
It’s especially true in relation to sexuality. No, she’s not queer. She’s certainly not gay. And bisexual isn’t right either. She runs away from all of those labels because they’re just words…they don’t sum up a person in a situation and take into account everything that goes with the individuality of human existence. So the question is…are people who don’t label still a part of the “community”? I’ve gotten very mixed reactions from queer people. Some say “of course, she’s dating you, that makes her queer, even if she doesn’t identify as such”. And some say “well, she doesn’t embrace the label, so she isn’t one of us”. Now mind you, she doesn’t give a flying fuck either way, nor does she really care that people aren’t sure whether or not she should be allowed into the “gay community”. But it’s something interesting to think about.
What defines someone who is considered gay (or queer)? Do you have to fuck people of the same gender? Have desires for people of the same gender (or of queer genders)? Identify as queer? Why are some of us so easily accepted into this invisible “community” while others are completely excluded? My partner is not queer. She’s not gay, she’s not bi. Should she be considered queer only when she’s out with me? Not even then? Do you even follow what I’m saying???
Is identity relational? Is she queer by proxy? Because I’m an out dyke and she is my partner, is she automatically queer? If you say yes, where does that leave identity? Is she still queer if she says “fuck no, I don’t want to be labeled”? When, if ever, do you disregard identity for this imaginary community that seems to be such an exclusive club?
Where does this even leave me? A queer woman with a female bodied, female identified partner, yes. But am I in a gay relationship if my partner isn’t gay? A queer relationship if I’m the only queer one? It’s not an issue I’m working through anymore, really. I’ve accepted that I’m the queer one in a fluid, ambiguously defined relationship. But other members of the community seem to have a really hard time with it. “How is she not gay or bi? She’s dating a woman isn’t she?” My opinion on the matter is that you don’t have to define if you don’t want to. Your relationship doesn’t define you. Who you fuck doesn’t define you. Only you can define who you are. And the rest of the “community” better respect that.
Wow, I just re-read that and my head hurts. Kudos to anyone who actually got through that without going “why the fuck does she ask so many questions????”
No worries, asking questions is a good thing it shows active participation in one’s life.
I’m not certain if this is the question you’re asking but from my perspective there are two basic types of identity, the way we view ourselves and the way we’re viewed by others. When it comes to the latter it’s colored heavily by an outside individuals perceptions that we can’t control unless we consciously work to fit within their predetermined parameters.
I identify as gay to the extent that it’s an apt term regarding my sexuality but no more than that and in truth were the legal issues to disappear I’d probably never think about it at all. I don’t embrace a gay ‘lifestyle’ and so find myself outside the gay community. Their perception is often that it’s not enough to be in a same-sex relationship, in order to be ‘truly gay’ one must ‘live’ gay and part of this is to accept one of their predefined labels. This is how my identity is established for them so my own view of my identity is meaningless in this regard. People are going to think what they will whether you want them to or not. The real question is whether or not you care?
One can choose to accept this mindset and conform to those outside perceptions or one can choose to ignore them and go about their merry way. For myself, I tend towards Cowgirl’s attitude, I am what I am and I don’t care much about who/what others perceive me to be. In the end, the perceptions of others only matter if we want them to.
Thank you thank you thank you.
This rings true to such an intense degree for me. It’s been very rare in my experience for a gay woman to understand this. And not just understand, but embrace it. I didn’t date women for a long time because being bi (which just doesn’t always feel like the right label, but saying it means I don’t have to explain myself constantly) meant I wasn’t gay enough. So thank you.
Sorry but that can be very confusing seeing how a woman is dating another woman yet she isn’t gay I’m not sure how that makes sense to me.
Jennifer excellent points!
RadDyke This is a good post (give yourself credit you did a great job). It opens the doors for dialog based on thought-provoking questions.
For me as time passes I realize you define yourself and the labels and opinions others place on you is irrelevant. Though this mentality is challenging to hold on to 24/7. If someone is gay they shouldn’t feel they constantly have to prove it, explain it, defend it, hide it, deny it (but unfort we do). I mean shit with all that going on one never gets to the most important “it” the live it.
Jaz- dialogue is always my goal. I write provocative pieces on purpose. I’m glad you like it!
littlechef-I’m so glad this resonates…it took me a little while (as someone who does identify as queer) to understand and embrace this, but when I realized that it felt forced for her to identify as anything, I didn’t want to make my identity the only right way to be with a woman, so now I am just okay with having a female partner…not a queer relationship or a bi partner or anything like that.
Jennifer-excellent points. I agree that often with mainstream gay culture you have to “live gay”. I don’t have rainbow anything and I don’t plan to. Nor do I go to pride parades. And it’s hard for people within a certain faction of the gay (I use gay, not queer here very carefully and intentionally) community to accept that I too, am gay/queer because I distance myself so much from all that.
And Kristy-I think it’s an identity thing. Yes, to you, we’re a gay couple. We are two women who live together, sleep together, have joint finances, etc. But if she doesn’t identify as such, who am I to say “oh you’re gay/bi because you’re now dating a woman”? If that’s not the way she would choose to identify herself, it’s not my place to stick labels to someone else. If she chose to start identifying as bi, I’d recant that and call her bi. But she doesn’t, and so that label isn’t her…and it’s not fair to her to stick it onto her.
Thank you so much for posting this. I am also in a place in my life where I do not feel any one of the available labels appropriately fits my identity. This is so difficult for others to understand and honestly, I usually don’t even identify myself to others. I often allow people to assume I am straight because it is easier (which is bull shit on my part). I GREATLY appreciate you opening this dialogue.
What are you saying…RaDdyke? Of course we identify! But, you need to come back into the real world of our existance!
Somethings wrong here my friend! Please come back! Something just doesn’t seem right, here!
That part you wrote, “….. Shouldn’t be allowed into the gay community.” ….. That struck me because it’s so fucking weird how we (the LGBT community) dare to make someone who doesn’t fit any labels feel as if they CAN’T or not welcomed or ALLOWED into our little club! Really?! Wtf is up with that and how hypocritical can you get?
But then on the flip side of that, I get it too ….. It’s like, well if she isn’t willing to take on the title and the responsibility and repercussions of claiming us, why should we claim her. Does that make sense?
I pride myself on being super duper freaking accepting of any label ore way of living …. But it is difficult to wrap my head around it when people say they’re not gay or queer or at least bi, yet are in a same sex relationship. But it doesn’t matter, because as long as the two people IN that relationship get it, that’s all that matters. Right?
So basically I don’t care if your woman hates and refuses any label that identifies her as “one of us” …. If you love her and she loves you, awesome!
But this makes me wonder, does this leave you out in some queer/queerless limbo land? Do you feel any loss of community by your partners choices?
Why are labels so damn important anyways? I don’t think they should matter so much. If people would just let go of labels and just accept that some people just don’t identify and get over it… we would all be better off. Especialy those of us in the queer community, i completely agree with Sasha. Don’t be so hypocritical!
I will put it to you this way… Back in the 60′s light skinned African Americans would sometimes try to “pass” as white and deny their heritage. I am sure this pissed off plenty of dark skinned African Americans who had no opportunity to “pass”. I would imagine they felt abandoned by their brothers and sisters in the fight for equality. You can claim whatever you want about yourself and how you see yourself. But how others see you is what affects how you will be treated by the public at large. And I think people who wish to abolish all labels are just showing their cowardice. To me it is yet another attempt to hide yourself rather than living out and proud and a failure to find yourself and make a conscious decision about what you want. Hey while we are at it, why not abolish ALL definitions of ALL words? I would like to eat a shit sandwich and sleep with a giraffe before taking a dump. And by that I mean I would like to eat a ham sandwich, and sleep with my girlfriend before taking a bath. Words have meaning. Definitions have a purpose and denying them is chaos and confusion and utterly silly. In my humble opinion…
Femmelover-LOL That’s too funny- you sound like she is lost in “lesbian outterspace” . -”What are you saying…RaDdyke? Of course we identify! But, you need to come back into the real world of our existance!
Somethings wrong here my friend! Please come back! Something just doesn’t seem right, here!” Absolutely no disrespect meant from me – I know you were not trying to be funny it just sounded funny- like you’re running after her yelling “come back!” Oh I am WAY too easily entertained. hehe
I am going to buy a tight white tee-shirt and get written across my boobies “You only want me for my label!” They won’t know if this is a straight label or a lesbian label.
i have no issues being labeled. and i agree with raye. it’s a conversation i’ve had on many occasions with her and friends. labels can be used to hurt people. but let’s get really psycho on this topic, shall we. isn’t a word only as hateful as YOU take it. “dyke” was once a word that was used to harm us from heterosexual homophobics. now, i hear a lot of lesbians embracing the word and using it freely amongst each other. and faggot? hmmm…among my social circle that word is used to suggest we go smoke a cig. and i’ve even embraced the word fag.
the simple fact is, is words are only as harmful as you allow them to be. i’ve been called bitch, slut, whore, dyke, snob, mean. and you know what? i don’t give a fuck! they can suck on my proverbial balls any friggin’ day. i have been a “slut” in my day. i AM a DYKE! i’m ALWAYS a BITCH! and i’m sure right now some people are thinking i’m mean. now and many other occasions
tough shit.
avoiding labels is avoiding everything that comes with this lifestyle! if you can’t hack the title/label LESBIAN then no…you’re not going to be accepted by me. call me a BITCH! some of us deal with a lot of bullshit OWNING this life! OUT & PROUD! all my friends are OUT. for a reason. we don’t want to hide. we’ve had a closet before and we’ve all torn it down and burned it. vowing never to go back. ignoring terms like lesbian and bisexual is shoving your own ass back in that dark, messy closet! thanks for setting us back a few more years.
heterosexuals have no problem being called straight or hetero. why should we? because THEY have a problem with it. FUCK THEM! that’s the truth behind this shunning of the label epidemic. y’all don’t wanna offend the damn heterosexuals. ugh! and gag! you don’t want to be separated out from the hetero’s. well ya know what? we are! tough shit! and i’m damnit happy in my little lesbian world! until the straights get their ignorance under control i will gladly go about my life as a FEMME (label) LESBIAN!
and all labels aside. for OCD reasons alone. i’d like to know if a girl i’m interested in fucked a dude yesterday and a girl before that. off to the free clinic we go, sweetheart!
politics aside, rad. if you’re happy and she’s happy. feel free to rome about the country.
every relationship is complex. you’re a lesbian, you’re fine with you’re being a lesbian. woopie di doo! being in a relationship with a girl who doesn’t want to define herself has nothing to do with who you are.
I guess I am unusual because I don’t think degrading words like “slut” “bitch” and being mean are as awesome as others do.
it’s only degrading if YOU take offense to it. people who don’t even know have called me those words. why should i get so upset about a word coming from someone who doesn’t know me? what? just because i wear a top that shows my beautiful boobs? i wear bright red lipstick. it doesn’t make sense to me! and yet because i go out in public this way. i’m a slut. the simple truth is that I KNOW that i don’t go off sleeping with the first woman i meet. those days are long gone. and yet, this word has still come out of people’s lips. but as long as i know the truth and they don’t KNOW me. it can’t hurt me!
as far as my own personal ideals on the word slut. i do embrace it. i know myself sexually, i know how to seduce another, and i know what gets me “off.” all from my own experiences of sluttiness.
the word bitch. oh my feminist gears are turning on these words specifically. bitch is usually a word given to a woman when she has stood up for herself! when she has voiced her opinion. for that idea alone. no. i don’t mind being called a bitch at all. because, yes. anytime that word has been said to me it was after i’ve spoken my damn mind.
your reactions to words are what make them so powerful.
You called yourself a slut, not me, you empower that word by claiming it with pride.
never said that you called me a slut? and no i didn’t call myself a slut, either. i said i’d take the word and use it my own advantage before letting some ignorant turd ruin my day.
Oof…reclamation of words. That’s a whole different blog post and I’ll eventually get the balls to write it…
But I think with reclaimed words as with any words, if you choose them for yourself, fine, but when others label you without your consent, that’s where the problems begin. I have a friend who identifies as a faggot, and while I find it hard to do, I try to use that as the label for him because that’s what he prefers. I recognize that many feel this way about “queer”, but since it’s the label I like, I would hope people would feel comfortable using it. I think that’s what this is really about…choosing what words you can use to define yourself, and where that fits you in with communities and in spaces. I have several friends who self-define as sluts, but if someone tried to impose that label on another woman who chose not to identify as such, it would be extremely problematic. Yes, with words with histories that need to be reclaimed, it’s more of an issue, but the general concept is still there, if that makes any sense.
The word slut is in the least degrading, at the most sexist and ignorant, MEN call WOMEN sluts because they have sex, or wear low cut shirts, you embracing it and saying: yes I am a slut because of those exact reasons. only adds to it, and IN MY EYES shows immaturity.
Seducing someone, knowing yourself sexually and getting off Have NOTHING, NOTHING NOTHING, to do with being a slut, and I am sorry if you feel it does.
The word bitch is not “Usually” used ever, its not something that people just randomly say and by claiming that you are one…I honestly wonder where you learned your feminist Ideals, I just don’t see the word bitch used when towards a woman “when she has stood up for herself!”, check the lyrics to almost every rap song out there, look to any prison populated by men, and last but not least, speak to anyone who breeds dogs.
But, Sarah M. I I’m sorry, I cant continue this with you, I kinda feel like I am, no offense, going in circles.
Its been interesting though.
So… I live a primarily hetero lifestyle, but I don’t think I would embrace being called “hetero” unless it’s used strictly as a term of endearment.
Labels are primarily bullshit. They’re the worlds’ tool used to relate to one another, when in reality how you relate to a person has much less to do with you as it does with how others, in their own minds, deal with/relate to you. As cliche as it is, labels don’t identify the person being labeled, they identify the person doing the labeling.
That being said, I’ve never had big issues fitting in with the gay or queer community. I do have many BFFs who self-identify as queer, but I only allow that self label to the extent that the person identifying feels comfortable with it.
To me, we’re all people. I want to respect personal labels because it’s a _respectful_ thing to do, but when it comes down to it, I don’t think of you (specifically RadDyke) as my queer friend. You’re my zany, silly, wonderful, compassionate, smart friend who has a romantical swoon-worthy relationship with a fantastic gal (my label for her since that’s how you’ve described her), and I love that you’re in love.
How we interact with our loved ones has little to do with gender-identity or sexuality. We are either involved in healthy relationships or we aren’t. At the end of the day, my BFFs aren’t my BFFs because they’re queer– though admittedly I feel I have more in common with outside-of-the-box (okay, bad inverted pun, I’m sorry) folks than ones who strictly follow every gender or sexuality based stereotype presented in our culture.
Just love. Fuck labels. Fuck the social clubs. Just be who you are, the best you can be, and have healthy interactions with those worthy of your time.
“no i didn’t call myself a slut, either.”
“i have been a “slut” in my day”
like I said, circles, its pointless to get worked up over the view someone else has on a subject, and you kinda seem like you are.
Sorry Sasha, didn’t mean to stir this up, I am going back to keeping my input on my F.B.
read the books “Bitch” and “Cunt” those are some eye openers. yep..i love the word cunt too.
yes slut was given by men. and some women have turned that word around finding the positive. that’s what i’ve done. my gf calls me a slut in bed and it does get my juices flowing.
“i HAVE BEEN a “slut” in my day”
PAST TENSE. go back to elementary school. however, i will use the word to my advantage before letting some turd ruin my day.
oh lookie! i’ve repeated myself…again!
and again i say words are only as hurtful as you allow them to be. that’s an internal problem you need to deal with. as long as you know the truth. that’s all that matters.
no. not worked up at all. just being a bitch
“Oof…reclamation of words. That’s a whole different blog post and I’ll eventually get the balls to write it…”
oh i hope someone does! it’s so awesome!!
it does suck when someone else tries to define you. especially if it’s something you would normally think of as a bad word. like i said, i’ve been called all sorts of words in my lifetime. do i go around calling myself those words. no. do i identify with them. no. not all of them. i do take pride in being called a bitch.
sexy bitch, cold hearted bitch, submissive bitch, yes..i have been all of those. so i can admit it. it’s usually the first thing i say to someone i meet for the first time. “i gotta warn you. i’m a bitch.” it’s laughed off…and then they get to know me. lol!
i just think it’s better for yourself while dealing with other people. to not let them see that certain words have an affect on you. they’re usually just saying something like that only to get a rise out of you, anyway. why give them the power?
I agree with RadDyke and Jennifer. The general point of a label is to define content to a public. If the label doesn’t fit the content, then it would inaccurately define the content if it were slapped on anyway.
For example, if a person allergic to peanuts wanted to eat a bag of potato chips, they may want to know if any traces of peanuts (peanut oil) are in the contents. If there are no peanuts, but the label says yes, then it’s inaccurate information. If there ARE peanuts and the label says no, then that is also inaccurate information.
Same thing with race. There is STILL an unknown with which is preferred, African-American or Black. It all comes down to an individual level. No one wants to be defined as something he or she doesn’t agree with. It’s unfair and unhealthy to feel pressured into defining yourself by what is acceptable and understood by others. And if the “community” doesn’t like it, then go find another or make your own damn community…
Then the correct label for her would be this one: “in denial.”
BUWWWAAAH HA HA HA HA WWG!!!!!!!!
I love what ASL said, great analogy. What I got from that bag of potato chips was this: labels are useful because they tell you what something is …. However, if someone isn’t sure what they are, or no current label “feels” accurate, they shouldn’t be shunned or treated badly for not just picking a label anyways, to make others feel comfortable.
I agree with that ….
But I also totally get what Sarah M. said. Those of us that take on the labels, also take on the prejudice and the fight for equality. Iso I can see how people feel about it from that point.
However and this is my final stand, I think ….. Is that if someone isn’t claiming a queer label right now, it doesn’t mean she never will ….. It doesn’t mean she ever will either …… But who are we to bully her into it?
Now about reclaiming words: i have been a self proclaimed slut in the past and those were some good times
I’m a bitch once in a while and usually only when needed. I’m a dyke 24/7. Still not comfortable with the word fag. Don’t know if I ever will be. Cunt: I was in the vagina monologues in college that traveled around colleges and local theatres and I performed the cunt dialogue …. Talk about reclaiming it!! It was empowering. Now I love the word. But again, it’s in the usage.
I mean someone can call me “doll” but the way they say it makes me want to kick them in the face if they’re condescending in their tone. And a friend can call me a slut and we both laugh about it. It just comes down to usage. You can make anything sound hurtful if you want to, and in the same vein you can make anything sound good if yntry hard enough,
Rad, your activist roots are showing. Way to kick off a dialogue that went places I am sure were not intended when you wrote and posted this blog. You got it in you to stir thoughts which spurs action. Just down your alley.
Descriptions and definitions are two different things. All of the labels can be used as both. Words mean different things to different people for a myriad of reasons. Natural development, environment, nurture, social status are some of the things the affect the perspective of individuals. All the reasons can mix or stand alone, can shape the message in each persons mind, and do it from the past and present, whether singularly or combined.
Words mean different things when applied to different things. How a person perceives these words, then chooses to use them while trying to communicate the picture in their mind, while sometimes trying to gauge the reception and the reaction of the person they are interacting with so what they are saying matches what they mean.
It’s a complex subject, very interesting because it is something we do naturally and most times get it right with the people we know best. With strangers, a wrong decision can lead to a war among nations. The comments here are on a smaller scale times two. It is the public at large, within the accepted and presumed mostly female LGBT readership.
Here is a word everyone knows and sees the same: Peace.
@Rexie-Damn girl, I was waiting for you to finally comment just so I can say “I totally agree with everything Rexie says…again!”.
Sarah M Sometimes I wish I was a bitch
getting repeatedly told how sweet, peaceful, gentle are you when everyone else around you is acting like a total bitch gets old real fast. When advocating for a kid I’m all about strength and bitch central other wise I really need bitch lessons. 
Have missed ya, Rad.
RadDyke – No one here is talking about how you label yourself but, we are talking about your lover not taking responsibility for owning that YOU are queen and a lesbian. Is it that you really don’t portray yourself as a lesbian?
Peace my friend!
The definition of a lesbian is documented. I realize that living in the south is tough and scary if you live as an out lesbian but, here on this site we love our outness. Please don’t be angry with any of us, we just are out and proud…at least most of us are…and, those that are up-and-come; in their own time…and, maybe your girl also. Just saying.
Might I ask you this…? Could this entire topic be part of your thesis and/or grad studies???
Rexie!!!! I missed you! …. And ditto on everything Rexie said!
Rexie – you are so mundane, hearty, and loving!! Wow, what a beautiful person you are…! A very special person has to be.
Au contraire, Femmelover, I would argue that my partner absolutely respects my ability to identify as queer/dyke/lesbian/whateverthefuckiamtoday, just as I completely respect her ability to not identify as such.
I’m absolutely comfortable with being out, and I am out even in a small town in the south. My outedness has nothing to do with my partner. The way I view myself and express myself in the world is individual, not relational. I would still be an out, queer woman if I was single, dating a man, dating a flaming queen who wore rainbow sparkly eyeshadow…that has no effect on the way I identify myself whatsoever.
I’m impressed that this post is generating as much dialogue as it is!
…but, is she out with you in this small town? Being out and proud has much to do with understanding us…gay women or gay men.
My friend – love is priceless for all; and, I understand this. I’m not bashing you at all…just trying to figure it out.
Could it be she is weary of coming out because she might be Bi?
I mean, I get it so much if that is the case!
Don’t be upset RD…we still love yah!
I hear you Rad and I am out of this conversation. Haven’t heard from you in sometime on FB!
Rad- I LOVE that line (sentence) you wrote “The way I view myself and express myself in the world is individual, not relational.” And hello I would LOVE to find some “rainbow sparkely eyeshadow” do post the link if u find such a creature.
Quote: “The way I view myself and express myself in the world is individual, not relational.”
Please be more specific about how you express your specific views; be they individual or relational.
Please explain individual views. I mean, I’m an individual lesbian because I want to be with only one. It’s a definition.
Is this what you are talking about?
FL- How I read Rad’s “The way I view myself and express myself in the world is individual, not relational.” (Which I absolutely love!) is that (correct me if I misread it Rad) she is totaly secure in her sense of self that she gets her
. I love this- because truly we ARE our own people defined and strong from within ourselves. It is irrelevant how others define themselves, but if you don’t know who you are, if you don’t stand secure in your own definition of self well….
“definition” of who is (a strong, self assured lesbian woman) internally regardless of external influences such as how anyone else defines themselves. Rad if I am correct on how I read this well then I think you are one empowered, strong, beautiful, ass kicking woman
Wow RD, way to get the ‘controversial’ ball rolling!
At first I agreed with WWG that your girl is in some deep denial but then I thought about it and now I doubt thats the whole case…
Choosing not to have a label IMHO stems from cowardice, it may not be full cowardice but that definitely features somewhere. If you’re ok with the whole ambiguous definition of your relationship then thats fine, but in some ways I feel she is denying you and alot of the things you represent/ stand for. It may not be an issue now, but you be careful.
Also, Sarah M, way to go on reclaiming that bitch title! I’m working on that myself.
Choosing not to permit others to foist their perception of your identity onto you is hardly cowardice nor is it denial. In fact it’s quite the opposite. It’s cowardly to define oneself based on the perceptions of others. It’s denial to embrace the labels of others and be unwilling to define yourself, refusing to set the terms for your own life. [It’s important to exclude those who are victims of abuse from any of this.] It is, however, cowardly and self aggrandizing to try and impose your will on another simply because it suits your comfort level or fits within your own narrow definitions.
Requiring others to accept you in the way you define your identity takes both courage and force of will. What greater strength of character can one employ than to say “I reject your labels, they are yours not mine and I deny you the right to require them of me.”? Aren’t these exactly the qualities we imbue in a person when they come out? That it took strength and courage?
It fascinates me that the ‘gay community’ is so (rightfully) adamant in rejecting the labels others would put on them, ‘perverted’, ‘ungodily’, ‘shameful’, ‘sick’, ‘misguided’, ‘confused’ (the list goes on ad nauseam), but are perfectly comfortable requiring others to accept the labels they’ve deemed appropriate in order to be admitted to the ‘club’.
RadDyke does not describe Cowgirl in any way that denotes weakness or lacking an ability to define herself. From her words there is a picture of a girl with sufficient self-confidence and self-awareness to say no, even if this causes the girl she loves some minor discomfort. I see the image of a girl who simply says “You define yourself how you want and I’ll accept you, please do the same for me.” I’d pose this question to RadDyke, would you look at her the same way if she acquiesced simply to fit in for your sake? Would you want her to suppress her identity for the sake of convenience and bow to the norm established by others? Although I wouldn’t want to put words in her mouth, I’m betting the answer is obvious. I’m also betting that RadDyke finds Cowgirl’s strength of character a rather attractive quality. I know I would.
Thank you, Jennifer. I wasn’t even going to try to deal with this anymore, but you said EXACTLY what I could have said (and probably should have said, in case Cowgirl ever reads this). I appreciate your well reasoned and well written defense.
And yes, the answer is obvious. I would hate for her to go “I’m gay ’cause it makes you happy” or “I’m bi ’cause it makes you happy”. That would not in fact make me happy because that’s not her identity. Just as I would never want to have to say “I’m straight” to make a male partner happy, or “I’m femme” to make a butch partner happy. And yea, strength of character is sexy.
i think if Cowgirl knows who she is and what she wants, it doesn’t really matter what she labels herself, or doesn’t label herself. As long as you don’t care and she doesn’t care, that’s all that matters b/c you 2 are the only ones in the relationship. i def. understand the point of others though about identifying/fighting for the LGBT community, and i agree that the community does need as much support as possible. i just think the whole point of equality and fighting for equal rights means that everyone should have the freedom to identify, or not, how they want to..
I don’t care if cowgirl choose’s or does not choose a label. Fuck the labels! All I am asking is this; your either straight, bi or a lesbian…which is it? If you can’t say I’M LESBIAN AND I LOVE A WOMAN AND HER NAME IS such and such people will ask questions, my friend…like some of us have. No one is bashing you RD!
Like I said before, Texas is a hard place to live out!
What Jennifer said and said so eloquently.
But, Jennifer…no one came out here…!
That it took strength and courage?
Everyday living takes courage regardless of orientation.
I agree with FL not trying to bash you RD but I don’t get how she isn’t anything and you’re supposed to be ok witn that…I don’t want her to say “I am gay because it makes you happy” that would be a lie, but on the other hand, being in a relationship with a woman and you refuse to acknowledge any “name” for it past same-sex relationship….that’s off.
I get what Jennifer said and to some extent I agree, however, as someone in the responses said, words have meanings for a reason. It doesn’t mean that she shouldn’t be accepted into the community. It would just help ALOT if she wasn’t ignoring said community by shunning all ways of identity that the community knows.
Sorry but it takes two to tango. But if both of them are tangoing and one states adamantly she’s not dancing, then what is she doing? Flying?
Choose whatever label you want including “I prefer not to be labelled” but know that *everything* has a label and if you don’t define it, others sure as hell will define it for you. Hell there’s even a label for the the “gets drunk and makes out with a girl” (that would be barsexual for 500, Alex).
And frankly, I think its cowardice, not strength, to refuse a queer label. As my mom said to me when I was a kid and wanted to be ABJ (anything but Jewish), “why would you deny the strength of your ancestors? You come from survivors. Be proud of that.” And I do, and I am. And while I’m not religious at all, I never wanted to be anything but Jewish ever again.
We queers? We’re some pretty darn strong folk. Pride.
Some women can’t say the word lesbian… even when their mouth is full of one. – Kate Clinton
Well, now, there’s a label for you, “coward”. It’s also a judgement coming from those who should know how it feels to be judged. So you earned your stripes and that now gives you the leverage and right to judge? Sounds very bigotted in reverse to me, because according to some, you just can’t be part of the club unless you go through the fire. You’d think there would be a bit more understanding. What if Cowgirl has no desire to be included in the lesbian clique? It can be pretty exclusive, and not in a good way. Isn’t it enough that she loves, sleeps with and is committed to a woman? From the sound of it, this is a relationship that has lasted years, which is a better record than a lot of lesbians who apply the lesbian/queer/gay label to themselves. To hear what you have to say, I would guess that it’s not enough for you. It apparently is enough for Rad, and that’s all that matters. For someone to label someone a coward just because she hasn’t followed in your footsteps and slapped on a label you deem acceptable is pretty off-putting. I don’t normally label anyone unless they first label themselves, but I just have to go against my essentially non-judgemental nature in this case. Hope you wear it proudly: BIGOT.
Pansexual is a label too. So is queer. So is sexually fluid. Doesn’t have to be lesbian, but it sure ain’t as hell straight.
And yes, it is cowardice to refuse some sort of queer label. Note I said “refuse”. Afterall, Raddyke even mentiomed this point I made in her post: “Some say “of course, she’s dating you, that makes her queer, even if she doesn’t identify as such”.” Like I said, labels exist whether we claim them or not.
Bigot? Hardly. Just calling it like it is. And if she was that comfortable with it, a blog post wouldn’t be written about it. Considering how many *years* and millions of queer people there are (of all stripes) who adamantly refused a queer label (bi, gay, lesbian, etc) out of utter fear, I do think it’s somewhat cowardly. Hell, Liberace successfully sued a newspaper for calling him gay even when we now know he definitely was. He didn’t want to be labelled as such either.
Pansexual is a label too. So is queer. So is sexually fluid. Doesn’t have to be lesbian, but it sure ain’t as hell straight.
And yes, it is cowardice to refuse some sort of queer label. Note I said “refuse”. Afterall, Raddyke even mentiomed this point I made in her post: “Some say “of course, she’s dating you, that makes her queer, even if she doesn’t identify as such”.” Like I said, labels exist whether we claim them or not.
Bigot? Hardly. Just calling it like it is. And if she was that comfortable with it, a blog post wouldn’t be written about it. Considering how many *years* and millions of queer people there are (of all stripes) who adamantly refused a queer label (bi, gay, lesbian, etc) out of utter fear, I do think it’s somewhat cowardly. Hell, Liberace successfully sued a newspaper for calling him gay even when we now know he definitely was. He didn’t want to be labelled as such either.
No one said it had to be her whole label. Is she blonde or brunette? That’s a label. Tall? Short? Truck driver? Ceo? Cowgirl? Those are all labels and they can change and often do. But it doesn’t change the fact that they exist. Simply put, your sexuality should be but a facet of the many parts of your personality and descriptors, but it is still ome of them, even if that descriptor is asexual.
People should be given the respect to be labeled as they choose to see themselves. What one does for a living, such as a truck driver is simply what one does for a living, and if that person chooses not to be defined by their job, or their sexuality, then that is their choice and it should be respected. There are a number of reasons people feel the way they do, many times those reasons are unselfish in their motives. They should not be called a coward because no one but that person can know the reasons which may have nothing to do with cowardice. Coward, by most people’s definition, is a negative and in the least, it is wreckless to assume that of anyone, especially if you don’t know them. Sure, asexual is a label if someone chooses to label themselves as such. But suppose you were to label someone that on the basis they are in a period of abstinence. It doesn’t make it so just because you choose to brand them as such. No one has any right to slap their definition on a person who does not embrace it themselves.
From Wikipedia:
A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern English refers to persons hostile to those of differing sex, race, ethnicity, religious belief or spirituality, nationality, language, sexual orientation, and age; and to those from a different region, with non-normative gender identity…
The term describes a personality trait which is viewed as a negative characteristic and has been shunned and disdained within most, if not all cultures…
The second paragraph was for *cowardice*, but it was included in html brackets and therefore did not appear.
We’re here to discuss various points of view, including dissenting ones. My comment was in response to Jennifer’s, offering my own and differing point of view. To resort to name calling is trolling and frankly, lame. If you can’t argue a point without taking it to kindergarten tactics, then don’t waste my time arguing with me at all.
And to point out, I didn’t call cowgirl a coward. I said it was cowardice. Difference.
Only one point I will make in response to all of this. Well, two.
One: Thank you Rexie…so eloquent and you completely understand where I’m coming from.
Two: in response to the claim that because I wrote this, I must not be completely comfortable with Cowgirl’s lack of identity, I have to admit, I didn’t write this for me. I wrote this for everyone else who reads this who may be in that same position, either someone in a relationship with a woman who adamantly refuses a label, or the partner of a person who refuses to remain unlabeled. For a while, several years, I thought I was the only person dating someone who refused to identify as anything. Once I accepted the identity-lessneess as an identity, I realized there had to be others in the same position. I wrote this for them so that they know they’re not the only ones. And from the varying responses, it seems to have worked and reached my target audience (as well as a few outspoken dissenters). I worry about the dissent because I wanted this to be a positive post for those who are needing affirmation of their identity as unlabelled.
If you are free to comment to another poster’s comment, then everyone is free to do the same. That is the point of labeling someone who does not wish to be labeled. To them, it sounds like “name calling”. Obviously, you weren’t comfortable being labeled in a way that you considered inappropriate to your actions. It is the same with those who are forced to wear labels they themselves do not embrace. You have proved my point with your reaction. To say someone is behaving a certain way is to call them that. To say she is demonstrating cowardice is the same as saying she is a coward. To say that you or anyone demonstrates biggotry is to label them a bigot. I am no troll WWG. I have been a contributing member of this site probably longer than you have and I have made friends here. You need to admit that you are wrong and perhaps apologize. It would be the gracious thing to do.
WWG, since you said you were responding to me I spent some time writing a reply but I’m afraid I lack the ability to be brief and concise. By the time I was finished it was far too long for me to be comfortable posting it here. I’d be happy to send it along to you if you’re interested (I can be reached via my blog). Otherwise I’ll just say that I respectfully disagree with you and think that what you had to say doesn’t jive with your previous writing. I’ll leave it at that and wish you well.
“My opinion on the matter is that you don’t have to define if you don’t want to. Your relationship doesn’t define you. Who you fuck doesn’t define you. Only you can define who you are. And the rest of the “community” better respect that.”-Rad Dyke
I think that sums it up. I don’t find it cowardly, I don’t find it strong- it just is. I don’t think that refusing to identify within the current subculture is anything other than what it is, anymore than I feel that refusing to label within a gender (which some people later coined as “genderqueer” but others still don’t identify with the term) is cowardly or strong. It’s just who you are. Some people feel like if you put a label on them, it will discount not only who they were and what they lived through in the past, but who they could be in the future.
Raye brought up the point of blacks who used to (and some still do) pass as anything but. I would also point out that the term “black” and “African-American” are very recent, and the term that used to be so strongly (VERY strongly) identified with was “negro.” “Of color” is still a term used to this day. But now we’re in the present and the widely accepted and used term is “black.” Some people still don’t like that term, just as some people still don’t like the term “African-American.” Point is, maybe Cowgirl would find a word in the future of our vocabulary evolution that could suit her, and fit her. But it isn’t on us to find that word for her, or to say she even should have one.
You can call her what you want, but she doesn’t have to accept it. People have called me all sorts of things, and I never answered to it, I just let them take comfort in their own little categories. I didn’t need it, they did, so I let them live in the illusion that they’d finally nailed me down. If it makes them feel better….
“The truth is I’ve never fooled anyone. I’ve let people fool themselves. They didn’t bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn’t argue with them. They were obviously loving somebody I wasn’t. When they found this out, they would blame me for disillusioning them- and fooling them.” -Marilyn Monroe
She’s in no way obligated to accept what you call her. You are in no way entitled to label her. Least of all for your own peace of mind and order for the way your view of the world works. I find it a shame that you would place your own comfort (the need to label her because that’s the way it is in your world) above her comfort (the need to not be labeled), as if you- a stranger- are more important than the person who has to live with it.
Note: all the “yous” and derivatives thereof are universal.
When it all comes down to it (in my opinion) the only “necessary” labels are “human being”, “friend” and family member titles “mama, dad etc”.
Wow Elegy, I find myself backtracking because of your comment; it was very well put. Thank you for the insight.
Jaz, love the ‘labels’.
I hate to say this but for once, I disagree with Rexie. I am totally and completely in agreement with WWG. And the person who said words have meaning for a reason… yeah that was me. I guess I am a bigot too. Whatever.
One last thing, a label is not the same thing as an adjective or a derogative. It is simply a fact or fiction. The fact that some of you equate the word lesbian with someone else’s “label” of pervert or shameful sounds like a personal problem and just solidifies my perception of the cowardice YES COWARDICE of rejecting the so called “label” of lesbian. Now if you will excuse me, this conversation is making me want to sing… and by that “label” aka WORD I mean vomit. Cheers.
Rexie: “People should be given the respect to be labeled as they choose to see themselves.”
Really? So if my mother thinks she is a train and runs around screaming choo choo all day, I guess that makes her a train? Funny that just makes me think she is batshit crazy… just like the rest of these women saying that you can have sex with a woman and not identify as SOME variation of queer. I would just like to identify as a fish…. can someone call me Nemo please? What? How DARE you call me a human??? You bigots!
correction: “have sex with a woman” should have said “have a relationship and regular sexual interaction with a woman”
I had to scroll up for ten years to remember if this was the same conversation Sarah was griped at in and yep it is. By the way Sarah you sexy bitch, I love how you are proud and confident in your own identity. That is one of my many reasons for finding you sexy my dear.
Raye: I figured you’d chime in here and I knew you’d disagree. Yeah, it’s one thing to be out and proud, but it’s quite another to force your definitions on others who may not have the same definitions as you. Sure, go ahead and call them as you see them, but at least spare them the dignity and respect them for how they view themselves. The original use of “queer”, afterall, meant “odd” or “strange” not “homosexual”. It was a put-down originally, and to some, it still carries the stigma, for whatever their reasons, they just don’t feel like it fits them. That is their perogative, and for anyone to force anyone to accept a label (because that is what “queer” is) is narrow narrow-minded and disrespectful. We all see things differently, as I said in an earlier comment here. In some social circles, the word “slut” is almost a term of endearment, certainly not negative. In other circles, it is an insult. It just depends. I’ve known women who saw themselves as hardcore butch daddies, but in my estimation, they were more of a soft butch. Out of respect for them, however, I would refer to them as they saw themselves, and when describing them to anyone I would always defer to the label of their choosing even if to me it didn’t really fit. Would I call them delusional or any other negative just because our perceptions differed? Not on your life. I have no problem with people in disagreement because that is how the world is. It’s a fact and it’s not going to change. I do, however, take issue with someone being viewed negatively just because they label themselves differently than you would. That is the whole point in the fight for equality, and some members of the LGBT community, in a way, prepetuate the very same prejudices that we are trying to fight. It wasn’t so long ago that being homosexual was generally negatively labeled along the lines of “miscreant”, “perverted”, “deviant” and people were shunned because of it. Now that room has been made for homosexuality to exist in mainstream society, it is being filtered down and homosexuals are turning against eachother and saying, “We fought for the right to exist, and you better get on board the train (hehe) and accept our (now) mainstream labels or else you are a COWARD”. And so, the negativity and the bias and the shunning is renewed except instead of the general heterosexual population doing the shunning, it is members of the homosexual community against their own. It would be like someone of any color insisting that their brothers and sisters of the same color call themselves the same thing. “We’re negro but Miss Fancy says she is Afro American…what a coward” is not allowing individual freedom for others to express their identity on their own terms. I have a white friend who married a black man. Their children are beautiful and light skinned and are now getting to the age where they are becoming self-aware. Their birth certificate indicates they are black. The son is okay with this, but the daughter wants to know why she is black and not white because she identifies more as white. Her mother, says one drop of black blood makes someone black and that’s why they were listed as such on their birth certificate. The daughter is beginning to challenge this and is having a difficult time with the black side of the family for shunning her birthright. What about the white birthright? She sees herself as white, is half white and so should be given the right to label herself according to how she feels about herself. THAT is her birthright more than being thrown into a category that doesn’t suit her.
We’re just going to have disagree on this, Raye, but it doesn’t mean I love you any less. To me, you are as sterling as ever. What? I didn’t say platinum? And, yes, your Sarah M. is a sexy bitch and a diamond one at that. Cheers, my friend.
Rexie the point you are missing is that no one is saying they have to identify as “queer” or “bisexual” or any other word that offends them. But what I AM saying is don’t expect to be a part of a community you are too afraid or disgusted to call yourself a part of. It’s that simple.
And before you say they are not disgusted or afraid, think about the reasons for denying the label. All lesbian means is you are a woman that loves women. Is this you? You love men too? Oh ok you are bisexual… or sexually fluid. No? Not you? oh you say you love EVERYBODY?? Ok you are pansexual! The fact is that these people do not want to use these labels because they want the pleasure of being with a woman but not the judgement of society at large because they know these words have been used by idiots as an insult. Fine but don’t expect the protection and love and acceptance of people you don’t want to be associated with by those on the so-called outside. It is fucking insulting to those of us who don’t deny who we are to others.
And Rexie I still love you of course…
“The fact is that these people do not want to use these labels because they want the pleasure of being with a woman but not the judgement of society at large because they know these words have been used by idiots as an insult.”
“Then the correct label for her would be this one: “in denial.””
“I am sure this pissed off plenty of dark skinned African Americans who had no opportunity to “pass”. I would imagine they felt abandoned by their brothers and sisters in the fight for equality. ”
“Sorry but it takes two to tango. But if both of them are tangoing and one states adamantly she’s not dancing, then what is she doing? Flying?”
I feel like this is coming down to projection and, from that, assumption. The above are both used to illustrate this concept of abandonment and passing to avoid consequences, but I feel as if this is far too over simplified.
Ultimately I disagree with the argument that someone refusing to be labeled MUST be because of X- as if Y and Z, and all the other letters never existed. All I can really say is that it is very obvious that you don’t walk their life, have little background in how they perceive their life, and cannot begin to guess motivations due to this. You can ask questions, but the drawing of conclusions is outside your field of expertise. It’s basically cultural commentary from the perspective of an outsider: you’ve looked at the surface and drawn your conclusions based off how things work in the world you live in. This simply doesn’t work because this is entirely foreign to you- to draw a real conclusion you’d have to ask people who are part of the culture, with an open mind and heart to get to the truth of the matter. In this case, interviewing Cowgirl and people like her. And ultimately, she’s thankfully not required to oblige anyone an explanation, least of all people who have already made up their minds and have closed themselves off to investigating the truth.
Hey, Novia.
P.S.
I’ve not read the Cowgirl and Rad Dyke are ashamed of each other, hide their relationship, or feel invalidated by one another. Not sure how anything else brought up is as important as that. Is she gay? Is she bi? Pan? Omni? Straight? How about does she treat me right?
P.P.S.
While I know we’re just going to agree to disagree, one thing I do find confusing and would appreciate explained:
How is it that Cowgirl is labeled gay/queer/not-straight, but she’s still not allowed to be in the community? She’s gay, but not gay enough? So she’s like the outcast of gay, but only because she’s a gay who’s not gay, or anything else for that matter?
…And this is reason enough for me to distance myself from the mainstream gay community. Being told that I shouldn’t expect protection, love, and acceptance from other gay people because my partner refuses to call herself gay doesn’t exactly make me want to be a part of a community that won’t accept me or my relationship.
I’ve been able to withhold all emotions of my own from this dialogue so far, but now I am unable to check my emotions at the beginning of the post.
You are still judged when you’re out in public with a woman, being in a relationship with a woman, being openly in love with a woman. You face exactly the same hostility, and sometimes love and radical acceptance from society at large even if you don’t identify with a sexuality. Not claiming a label does not make the world a safer place, a happier place, or a place where you are more tolerated. If anything, you face more hostility because people within the queer community are refusing to accept you, your relationship, or your struggles as their own.
I am deeply appreciative to Elegy, Rexie, and the others who have understood what I was trying to say, and for those of you who were looking for validation in this post, and found it, if you’re still reading the comment chain, I’m sorry. Some queer people still love, accept, and help you out you even if you refuse labels. I happen to be one of them. There are others. I promise.
Well since “we” are only allowed in the community if you match the description that Raye has for gay/queer/bi, etc. then the majority of us are, for lack of a better word: fucked.
oh and you have to claim the label she assigns you also.
Let me know when someone lives up to your standards/labels Raye, and by “someone” I mean Someone besides Sarah M.
Some folks seem to have this notion that there is a homogeneous ‘gay community’ that sets the standards for all people who are attracted to persons of their own gender and has the right to do so unilaterally. It’s a group-think mentality that says you need to be one of ‘us’ and here are the rules we expect you to follow. They have a litmus test, this is how you must identify. Now where have I heard this kind of thing before? Oh right, pretty much every conservative politician that voted for DOMA. I’m astounded that I’m hearing it here of all places.
But when I hear things like “…don’t expect the protection and love and acceptance of people you don’t want to be associated with…” I understand where it’s coming from. It’s a defensive knee-jerk reaction. Nowhere in the post did it say that anyone didn’t want to be associated with the gay community, all it said was that someone didn’t want to be labeled by them. That someone would read any form of disassociation in that speaks to their own issues and insecurities.
As one of the people who prefers not to be labeled by the gay community (or anyone else for that matter) I can tell you that I’ve never asked for love or protection from them. And I don’t ‘ask’ for their acceptance either. I demand it because I demand to be accepted by everyone for exactly who I am and not for who they want me to be. Of course I don’t expect to receive it so I shouldn’t be surprised when I don’t get it from the gay community either.
No person or group has the right to define others. If one chooses not to accept a label they are not ‘traitors to the cause’, they are not ‘in denial’ and they are certainly not cowards. They are simply exercising their right and this right cannot be abridged by some false notion of community or sisterhood.
“So if my mother thinks she is a train and runs around screaming choo choo all day, I guess that makes her a train? Funny that just makes me think she is batshit crazy”
Statements like that are wrong on oh so many levels. First, it’s bigoted and pretty damn insulting to those who suffer from mental illness. Second, how about we rephrase it to this:
“So if my mother thinks she’s attracted to women, I guess that makes her a lesbian? Funny, that just makes me think she’s a disgusting pervert.”
Does it still work?
And then there’s the matter that this kind of thinking has a very real impact on girls that are struggling with their sexual identity. Telling a girl who’s filled with uncertainty and confusion that she HAS to make these kinds of identity determinations is daunting and just pushes her deeper into the closet for fear of rejection from the very community she hoped would accept her without judgement.
Just so I know for future reference, is there a drop-down list somewhere that we need to select our authorized labels from?
@Jennifer: Yes there is, See Raye for that list.
It is not that some of us don’t appreciate the strength of those out and proud who have gone before us or currently. Some of us have very intense respect for these woman. Maybe we have seen the living hell that a sibling went through when they came out. Resulting -Maybe we soley picked up the pieces, wiped the tears for many years and are now too tired ourselves. Please don’t misread our silence of labels as being cowardly because there is a deep history, a painful story behind that appearance of cowardness that is of an incredibly and unspeakably brave soul. Maybe some of us have such respect for those who have been strong enough and brave enough to proudly wear the label that we purposely don’t get involved with another woman even though we totally crave it but feel that until we are “brave enough to be out just stay in the fucking closet and don’t get another woman involved in your closet mess”. And that is very difficult to be told but I understand. I understand that when one has the strength to come out, to be proud and public holy shit that takes incredible courage. I’ve seen that courage with my brother. I have seen that courage around me. With that being said coming from that perspective level I understand the not understanding and
the calling one who didn’t take your path “cowardly”. But please, please don’t because we really are not.. Well I can only speak for myself that I am absolutely not and that “label” hurts.
“I would argue that my partner absolutely respects my ability to identify as queer/dyke/lesbian/whateverthefuckiamtoday, just as I completely respect her ability to not identify as such.”
RadDyke, I almost never comment here and have certainly never had a conversation with you, but I swear it’s like you know what has gone on in my head and in so many of my experiences. Again, that remark and your last comment is exactly where my head is. Because I’m the one dating a gay woman. She doesn’t like feeling boxed in by the term lesbian, so she identifies as gay or preferably queer. She’s not trans by any standard but some days her gender identity is not of a woman. For me, that doesn’t change me loving her, it’s fluidity. And who am I to judge fluidity?
When I date a man the world sees me as straight and god help me there is no queer community for me to talk to then. As soon as I mention I’m bi and dating a man it all goes downhill from there. I’ve been dating my girlfriend for 4.5 years now which OBVIOUSLY means I’m gay, right? And I STILL get shit from the community because I’ll never be gay enough. Which means I always feel invisible and stuck. And is the exact reason why despite living in a major city I’m not involved with the community.
Thanks, again for being someone who’s ok with having life not be black and white. There’s far more grey in this world than people want to admit because it’s scary.
Dear Jazmenha,
No one is saying you must declare your label to all and sundry. Far from it. I come out when I want to and to whom I want to. But – I have a chosen label and it is defined simply – lesbian.. I choose and share my label because I have had people try to talk me out of being a lesbian. I’ve had people disrespect my love of women and try to talk me into loving men as recently as two days ago. And to this person I proudly said “I’m a lesbian.” A woman who loves women. A label offers strength, boundaries and respect. Imagine if there was no word “lesbian.” It simply didn’t exist. So when a woman who only loves women tried to offer society (and society refers to one person or many) an answer to why she does not and cannot love men, she’d have nothing to say. I am a lesbian – it is simple and has meaning.
So too does queer. And pansexual. And bisexual. They all have meaning and give us strength. Similarly, I understand that these labels can be used as weapons, demeaning and rude. And that simple definition I view as strength can feel like a box, and claustrophobic. But my point at the beginning and at the end is this – if you don’t choose your label, others will choose it for you, and then you may really dislike what they have to say.
We as adults all have labels for our sexuality. Children don’t have labels and rightfully so. I fully respect that labels change over time and new labels are being created daily (such as genderqueer) to more fully define the human experience and our relationships to each other. But my point is humans have a need to define and they will, always. Did you know homosexuals used to be called inverts? It’s true. The words may have changed, but the definitions were there before us and will be after us.
And no, I wouldn’t reject someone from “my community” (as if its some monolithic world that decides all of my thoughts – ha!) Because she didn’t identify as queer/gay/lesbian/bi. If you’re a cool person, we can be friends regardless. But would I be able to relate to her as well? No.
And as you said Rad Dyke, whenever two women are out together, it’s hard. Personally, I’d rather be proud of who i am and find commonality with others who are walking a similar path as me then reject them out of hand. Afterall, isn’t that why we’re all here posting comments on this blogsite? Because we share a common bond – we are all some stripe of queer.
wonderfully said WWG!
Amen WWG, again well said. And for those of you whining like babies over what I said about not expecting to be accepted by people you reject, put your big girl panties on and deal with it. I did not say that I PERSONALLY am going to reject anyone. None of you have any clue how many women I have been close to and am still friends with that are in the middle of their “coming out journey”. I never said you cannot be questioning your identity. Everyone is at their own stage in this. But what I did mean and will not apologize for, is that you should not be surprised if women who openly identify as “lesbian”, “queer”, “bisexual” or whatever label do not accept your indecisiveness and stop fucking whining about it. Because to them, what you are saying, “oh its ok for YOU to be some form of queer but I am not one of THOSE people. I am more eccentric and too special to be what YOU are.” And truly I don’t give a flying fuck WHAT you want to call yourself, I will probably not ever meet most of you and therefore have no stake in it. Seriously, it’s your own damn business. I KNOW who I AM. And I relate to women who KNOW who they are. I can be friends with women who are questioning and unsure and I can give them advice if they want it. I don’t offer it if they don’t ask for it. But am I gonna be wary of you? Hell fucking yes. That’s your problem not mine. Almost everyone has a nightmare coming out process. We all have friends and family members that leave us over this and we all have people who try to change us. You are not special. You are not above it. And you should not be surprised when self-affirmed LGBTQABCDEFG people listen to your “I don’t like labels, I don’t fit into any label.” speech and roll their eyes at you. Yeah yeah yeah we are all unique… just like everyone else. Some people see me and they think I am trans while others see me and they think I am a lesbian and woman-identified which I am not. I am butch and I think of myself as neither but do I care how anyone else sees me? Fuck no. It is what it is. And if they wanna know me, I will tell them who I am. But this over-thinking of this whole situation is self-important and self-indulgent. It really is not that big of a deal. I am so sick and bored to death with this line of thinking that we have to validate everyone’s self-aggrandized view of who they are! Truthfully, if you have no personal bearing on my life, I could care less. Call yourself a cow and moo for your language since you all seem to want to abolish definitions and generalizations. It’s retarded. And I swear if one of you says something stupid about me being insensitive to the mentally challenged for using the word retarded, I am going to laugh at you. The mentally challenged are more logical than some of you.
I know who I am (trust me I am definitely NOT straight- OMG definitely not
) I am very proud of who I am and I am proud of who others are. I know that I will definitely be out proud at the right time for me. I would NEVER be ashamed of saying “I am lesbian” and being with my love. I am just a quiet and shyer person. However I have told countless people I’m a guest writer on CCL with my poems. And I always say what CCL stands for. I get questioning looks. No questions so for. But I doubt anyone would think a straight woman would be writing a poem about lesbian porn like I did so … I feel my actions label me. I know who I am, I wouldn’t deny it but I am not at the point of bringing it up out point blank. Raye you said “And truly I don’t give a flying fuck WHAT you want to call yourself, I will probably not ever meet most of you and therefore have no stake in it. “- I disagree, because you are Christain you WILL see us in a life FAR more important then this one. – I’ll be running the “Ladies only Cafe” so stop bye and have a lattee with me. 
Jaz true we will meet. However, according to my beliefs we will have no gender there. Truly heaven for me. Cheers.
littlechef- your affirmation reinvigorates me and reminds me why I even bother to write stuff like this that I know will ostracize and hurt me in this “community”. I am so glad that you found some sort of connection to this. You should click over to my blog…I don’t allow any condescending words to anyone over there. *Shameless plug*
Raye – ??? An after life with NO boobies??? Sounds like we are all going to hell hummm maybe I should start having more fun in this life.
Rad I appreciate you writing this. I understand and live the points you make. I also appreciate what Elegy and Rexie had to say. Thank you to you 3. Peace everyone life is very short.
Rad no one has ostracized you. You may be hurt, but if I was hurt by everything people said to me on this page, I would have whittled away to nothing a long time ago. Some people love me here, some hate me. You have the right to write and think and feel whatever you want. Others have the right to think what you say is ridiculous. And condescension reigns supreme among these lesbians. Everyone that comments here thinks she is more educated or enlightened than the other. Everyone has an opinion and thinks theirs is the best. Don’t take it so personally. You’ll never come out alive. I would never have come back if I let what people here say bother me that much.
that includes me…
Awww, Jaz, ever the goodwill ambassador
@Rad – it takes a lot of courage to do what you did. To put yourself out there, on a personal level, with the intention to do good, to make someone’s journey a little easier, to let the those who are alone in the dark of their closet know that you are on the other side of the wall and can hear their quiet tapping, to assure them they are not alone if they don’t want to be. By sharing a part of your real self here, you have traded your privacy in this matter for the cause of greater good. It is selfless and noble. You saw a need for change, and you laid yourself on the line and ignited the fuse. You obviously hit a nerve judging by the number of comments in this thread. Real exchanges took place and perhaps some people were enlightened and others were comforted. You were wounded in the cross-fire and for that, I am sorry. It isn’t going to be easy if you are dedicated to change-making. There will always be drawback and the harder you push an agenda, the stronger the return is going to be. You have to remove yourself from equation, even if the topic was torn from a page of your personal journal that sparked the melee. It is a sacrifice to lead the charge, but always remember you can’t take things to heart when you are standing on an internet soapbox. The net can be an effective tool to reach a wide audience, but there are always going to be those who do not agree with what you have to say. Just hold up your shield when the tomatoes are launched and know that if your message is right and true, and if you are committed, persistent and courageous, your message will be heard and it will be carried like a flame which will light many candles and eventually, it will extinguish the dark.
i see how you could be a bit bothered from some of these comments. i’ll even include myself in some of the crossfire. i’m sorry you’re hurt. but i’m sorry about anything i’ve said.
i do believe in the “to each her own.” however, to say that without you or anyone realizing the consequences would be naive. everything you say or do has a consequence. this thread happens to be one of them.
personally, if you’re happy with your labeless girlfriend. that IS ALL THAT MATTERS. as far as the “community” don’t judge too harshly. i think we all have to remember where this community started. long before any of us realized we were lesbian. looong before there was any talk of marriage. and waaay before we were born. this community that you’re conflicted with has an incredible history of LGBT people feeling safe among each other. i think WWG mentioned the ability to relate to someone who is labelled or out. i gotta say i agree with this. i can be friends with someone who doesn’t label. do i feel like they’re someone who can possibly understand being shunned from family or friends. nope.
and that’s what holds the community together. for someone to come in without any true “identity” of themselves…perhaps we feel like a phoney is in our midst. and when that happens it is up to the both of you to stay strong and give people the time to get to know y’all. it works that way with any group of people.
look back to school days. there was some group you may have wanted to be a part of. and just when you made friends with one member, the others gave you a bit of a hard time. but, after awhile they get to know you and y’all become a group of friends.
that’s just human nature. or hell! animal instincts even! lol
Thanks Rexie
RD – you have originally/educationally come up with a totally new label in our community! Congrats! does this mean it has to be accpted and ratified…maybe just lived by some to be another so-called-label? Don’t know, just wondering how the grad studies were going?
I feel so used here…sorry I feel this way.
Rexie – And, please know that unfortunately, in the world in which we live…if you ARE bi-racial and look just a bit bi-racial you will be labeled by society as black and there’s no way around THAT societal stigma, no matter how wordly or righteous people feel about it in their heart of hearts and mind. Just saying!!! Thanks, though…it is reality and a some what beside the point.
Jazz –
LOL! LOVED THIS QUOTE: I disagree, because you are Christain you WILL see us in a life FAR more important then this one. – I’ll be running the “Ladies only Cafe” so stop bye and have a lattee with me. See yah, there too…
@RAD – I am not mad with you, just a little bewildered. Understanding will take time here. I think some of us just have questions we would like to ask you…about her. Like – Is she scared to acknowledge you in front of family, when your out and about? If yes, is this part of her identity as non-label? Like I said, the south is difficult…
Hi Femmlover- Yeah I was all excited about my cafe in the after life till I found out in the after life there is “no gender” which to me reads “no boobies” which yeah not good. hehehe
Hey I have a ? for you- sorry I am just confused but why do you feel “used” on CCL? You wrote “I feel so used here…sorry I feel this way.”- Why? That made me sad for you my friend so just wondering.
No, Femmelover. It has nothing to do with where we live or how out we are. People who know us know we’re a couple. We are together in front of her family and friends. We are not hiding our sexualities because we live in the south. I think you missed a big point in there…there are plenty of out lesbians in the south. I am one of them. My partner is proudly in a relationship with a woman, she just doesn’t have any words to describe her sexuality. That has nothing to do with how she feels about me, where we live, or our level of outedness. She would still be like that if we lived in LA, Seattle, Chicago, France…whereever. Just as you’d still be a lesbian in any of those places. Your sexuality doesn’t change based on where you live. She is not afraid to be seen with me, she just doesn’t like the words “lesbian, gay, bisexual, queer” etc to describe herself.
Jaz, I don’t feel used by CCL. I feel a bit used by Rad because I think (and maybe I am totally wrong) she is conducting a bit of her school grad studies on us. And, I think topic is a large part of it.
…so when we voice our differing opinions on it, I don’t think Rad banked on some of these opinions not being along the lines of her thinking. But, she should not have assumed that we all would be ok with that thinking. And, I don’t think she did. However, a thesis can change as it matures…if you understand what I am saying. Are we a part of this study? Or, is it just circumtance? Can’t say 100 percent. Shall we ask her?
Rad, what is your topic for Thesis? Is CCL and your blog-site a part of your info line for Thesis/grad studies? Just asking!
And Jazz, through all of this…I am still picturing your tight white tee-shirt! hehe. And, yes I was trying to get Rad back here!!!
Femmlover I can’t speak for Rad but I really do not think it is her intention to trick us and use CCL/ us to gather data for her grad thesis as you’re personally assuming that she is. Not said as a critism towards you but as an attept of reassurance to you. As a fellow guest writer on CCL I know that Sasha has a high expectation of honesty and integrity from her Guest Writers and I truly believe Rad posess such high integrity. I think the comment section has gotten out of control
and it’s important to go back to the root efforts that were put into this post originally. Though it is a huge honor (and I LOVE it) it’s not easy to be a Guest Writer or Guest Poet on someone else’s blog because you really are sharing a part of your own experiences. A part of yourself. Femmlover I sincerely wish you peace with Rad.
Femmelover, that is possibly the sillest thing I’ve ever heard, and I hope you’re kidding, because it made me laugh. If not, thanks for the laugh anyway. For thesis research, you have to go through the IRB before you conduct any sort of interviews or research that is based on people. If I was going to conduct research, you would be filling out a consent form and having personal interviews with me. My thesis topic has nothing to do with queer identity. It is on social movements. If I decide to see if anyone here has information that will be useful for my thesis, I will (after getting IRB approval for doing interviews), post a message with my topic and calling for anyone with a knowledge base of that topic to email me personally so that we can set up an interview. I am not unethical enough to conduct research by a conversation, nor would that research even count if I tried to.
Thank you, Jaz.
Ok I have to jump In here. I don’t like the way the comments are going when it starts to look like people are attacking RadDyke.
I apprecaite her honesty and I believe that this post has helped others feel not so alone. There are a lot of people that refuse labels, and there is nothing wrong with that!!
As far as her using CCL?! That’s ridiculous, all she has done has been honest. I am insulted on her behalf that anyone would accuse her of doing something underhanded!! How dare you!!
And should she ever want to post on CCL, asking for participation in surveys or what have you, she has my fullest support and blessings. Because CCL is about helping each other ….. And sharing information …. Learning and community. And RadDyke is an important part of this community and if she ever needs our help with research and surveys, we will help her damn it!!
I don’t get it?! I really don’t get all the hostility in this thread? …. I am not talking about the valid points being made on bth sides of the argument, that is always welcomed. I am only referring to any comments that may have crossed the line between any commenters. So I just hope that we can all go back to a respectful place and agree to disagree on some things.
Sasha/Rad…I mean’t no disrespect! Trust me…you all know me!
I did not mean to say that CCL should not be used as a form of communication for all of us…it is a great form of communication for all, Sasha! Sorry…
After your words and Sasaha’s words…I finally get it! Please don’t be mad with me…I am just trying to comprehend your diff world, Rad.
I think I see where you are coming from. It’s just hard because I thought we were the same – butch brothers, you know?
I’ve never had a real butch friend…and I thought you were that ONE! But, your weren’t…what happened?
…and, nevertheless, all I want to say is I would never thwart a person here on CCL who wanted to get their point across or use this forum at all.
I have personal feelings here, Sasha!
I mean, Rad… when we first met you came across as maybe being a great butch buddy! What happened? We had great conversation going!
I feel that your orientation, doesn’t have to be a label really. It’s PART of who you are, not completely. It’s still good to recognize your orientation though. It makes thing much less confusing. If you are only interested in men, your ORIENTATION IS strait, only into women: it is gay/lesbian/queer (Which ever word you choose), then the oh so common of being into both, which is bisexual. Why should orientation be your definition? It doesn’t have to be but it is a part of who you are. That’s just my opinion though. I think it makes things MUCH less confusing to just be strait forward on not “Rebel against labels”. If it fits, it’s doesn’t have to be stamped on your forehead. Just tuck it away in your pocket for future reference.