What is Butch Enough?
My love for all things butch is well documented in the pages of CCL. But that doesn’t mean I understand the layers and complexities of the identity. In fact, the more butches I know, the more I realize, I don’t know diddly.
For instance the one thing I will never understand is why butches are so damn hard on one another? I have butch friends that think Remi is also butch, and some that think she is not even close. It doesn’t bug her at all, since she’s one of those “label free” lesbians. But I find it endlessly intriguing. And even among the people that don’t see Remi as butch, they all agree that she’s the “butch in the relationship.”
In my experience, every single butch I’ve met has a different idea of what being butch means. Which is great! That’s what makes it interesting and an ever-evolving culture. What I don’t get is when butches put other butches down with saying stuff like, “She’s not really butch,” “She’s not butch enough,” “A real butch would never do/say/be/wear that.”
Personally, I think that being butch is more about your mentality then your wardrobe. But that’s just me. I’m putting this to you, the reader to tell us what YOU think makes someone butch and why do butches judge other butches so harshly?
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I agree ‘butch’ is more of a mental personality thing than a clothes thing. I think people label people as butch based on what they look like because it’s easier than labeling them based on personality and mind set(which would take analyzing them instead of seeing and smacking on a label ASAP to feel more comfortable).
Maybe butch women are just really proud of their identity as butch and not hiding it (since they can certainly get some bullshit for it), so they don’t like some one who is ‘less butch’ (ie soft butch) or ‘not butch enough’ appearance wise because they feel they don’t have it as bad as they do.
Or maybe it’s competitive.
Whether butch or not, they’re still women and pretty much undecipherable.
One word: INSECURITY
I’ve noticed this is a topic lately on a lot of blogs. My experience is that it’s kind of like porn – hard to define, but you know it when you see (or sense) it. I had someone, who considers herself boyish, but most definitely not butch, ask me what MOC (masculine of center) even means? “what/where is the center?” And you know what? I didn’t know how to answer that. It’s a term I used out of respect for her self-defined sense of not being feminine and yet it didn’t come out quite right.
I try to respect all identities. If you say that’s your label, I respect it and I loathe when others do not and will stand up for someone’s right to their own label. As a gay yet feminine woman, I get enough people telling me “you’re not gay, you can’t be” [insert asinine reasons why not] to think I have a right to tell someone else “you’re not X, you can’t be”. Based upon what criteria? It’s all relative anyway.
In this world, people experience such trauma and rage directed at them, when they find something that describes who they are to their core (an identity), they will latch on to it. Some people are so protective of their identity, that they tend to project any deviance or non-conformance to what they’ve defined that identity as for *themselves* as a slight and attack on who they are. So if one self-identified butch doesn’t measure up to another self-identified butch’s standards (or even femmes, as I’ve seen femmes also policing what they think a “real butch” is or can ever be), they must be cast out. When it comes to a gender identification, it works the same way: not butch enough, not femme enough, not woman enough. not man enough, not queer enough.
The same thing happens when people who don’t identify as butch have other telling them that they are butch. It’s more… seeing a common ground, that results in an identity policing of a different sort. “We have something in common, and I see myself in you, so I’m going to tell you who you are.” As opposed to the opposite that is illustrated in this post which would be: “We don’t have enough in common, and who you are is in direct conflict of who I (as encompassed by my identity) claim to be, so I will tell you who you are not.”
It’s confusing, because while butch is interpreted by masculinity, in the West (patriarchal, colonialist, white supremacist, etc.) the collective understanding of masculinity (and femininity) is shaky at best as it stands on those aforementioned .
Basically, if it’s something you may (are *allowed* to, culturally, racially) identify as, don’t worry about what any one else has to say about it- they’re probably dealing with their own shit internalizing and perpetuating the problem and you don’t need to let them put that on you anymore than society will.
It’s kinda a shame it becomes a quantifiable thing.. I mean, I think it should be personal: if you identify “butch”, you’re butch. End of. In my past, I’ve known plenty of dykes who write lipstick and skirts, and identified as butch. I just think it’s personal, and everyone should butt the hell out of everyone else’s identity.
Write was supposed to be “wore”. Gotta love that autocorrect.
So well put, Elegy!
I just dont understand why you have to label everything. To identyfy with some thing or part of some things, that I do understand. I am curently in a relationship with a woman but have before that had a very long relationship with a man. Some people get agitaded when they ask if im lesbian and says no, and then asks me if im bisexual and I say no.. Im human. I am, if you must label things bisexual but why do the wold have to have that definition of me? Im human, shouldnt that be enough?
We judge others because we’ve been judged. Hate to say it but it’s sort of like getting hazed into a fraternity. If you want the label you have to be strong enough to deal with all the bull.
Most people that call themselves butch don’t deserve the title. Plain and simple.
I’ve seen this discussed a lot on various blogs in the last few months. One of the best posts I’ve seen is from Butch Wonders: http://www.butchwonders.com/1/post/2012/06/where-does-identity-policing-come-from.html
For me, I agree with the notion that identity is always individual and personal–no one has the right to define, re-define, revise or otherwise invalidate any individual’s chosen identity. Saying someone (call her Jane) isn’t butch enough, is the same as saying she isn’t Jane enough. Who’s to say (other than Jane) who Jane is or should be?
I don’t openly choose “butch” as my identity, but am most certainly a masculine woman. I’m very comfortable in my personal expression of masculinity, without needing to label it. But others feel strongly that claiming that label of butch is integral to their identity. However they ‘do butch’ is, in my view, the right way FOR THEM. The trick is to internalize the knowledge that someone else’s presentation or practice of butch is not a comment on or a threat to your own personal identity or presentation.
Valuing, honoring, respecting a person’s chosen identity is an essential first step to achieving true equality.
I get called an “Ellen” lesbian all the time. But back in the day, that was called soft butch. Being from Hollywood there are a LOT of androgynous hipster lesbians that would probably be insulted if you called them butch and would rather be called hot any day.
Sasha is one of the only lipstick femmes I know that’s from LA and thinks that butch and hot are synonymous. So of course she doesn’t get why we have such issues with each other, bless her heart. 🙂 <3
I consider myself soft butch. If someone thinks that's an insult then that speaks to their level of insecurity. Sort of like a straight man that can wear pink. If you're comfortable in your "butchness" you don't really give a shit what others think about it.
To any butches that like to put down other butches: grow the fuck up.
Not to be confused with the other Jen in the comments*
I think Sasha is calling me out on this blog!!! Lmfao!! I am guilty of telling her and other femmes I know that their butches are more like stems. It’s true if I see a butch wear makeup, she loses butch points. If I see a butch wear a dress?! She loses all respect. If I see a butch not paying for her femme? Bad form buddy!!! If I hear of a butch wearing Victoria secret lingerie? She’s not really butch.
A butch is a hardcore, masculine female. Anything not masculine about her makes her less butch. Truth hurts. Suck my big butch cock.
My “theory” is that a butch has similar mentality to a straight man. Straight guys bag on each other all the time for things they wear, say, do, everything. If it doesn’t meet they’re expectations, then they aren’t a “real man”. Pretty much, butches act like men. I agree with you though Sasha, I think it is a mentality thing. I may seem femme or look femme, but I rarely act like a girly girl. Occasionally, I bring out my super femme clothes, and I often bring out my butch clothes, other than that I dress like a “normal” 17 year old. I act like a guy, I hang with the boys, I talk, play, and consider myself like the boys. I still identify as a woman though. I don’t always think like a woman, sometimes I think more like a guy, but still I’m a woman. It’s all in the mentality.
Gotta jump in on this one. Being butch is complicated. It’s hard, it’s natural, it’s what you are, who you are. It’s more then the way you dress buts also more then the way you think. I don’t think a femme that has a butch mentality can legit call herself butch. She’s still femme but an Aggressive femme. And butch that doesn’t handle biznitch isn’t a real butch either, she’s just a girl in boys girls.
Being butch is being strong enough inside and out and you don’t try to look masculine, you just do.
I’m laughing. So hard. Mostly because of the discussion I was having earlier with an internet friend on what masculinity is for PoC, as opposed to from a white washed lens. Long hair is masculine. Long hair that is braided (two braids) is hyper masculine- it shows that there’s someone in your life who loves you enough to make sure you do your hair right. Being made up is masculine. (And all of the previous is also: feminine, neither, both- fancy that, and keep up).
And yet, there are people who have bought into the white supremacist notion of masculinity that will take a look at someone like Snoop Dogg and read them as feminine. LOL. Forever LOL. Two braids = masculine as fuck. Yet people wanna interpret them as lil bo beepness. Because they literally have no concept of what masculinity is and can be. Instead of “there are concepts of masculinity and femininity older and more relevant than what we have right now and we should respect and honor that” we get this tired “we’re drawing this comparatively recent line that we’ll swear has always been here, and we’re also going to tell you the line doesn’t exist while simultaneously enforcing it.”
Hair and Masculinity for People of Color: http://girljanitor.tumblr.com/post/40513316703/littleangrytiger-girljanitor-blackfoxx
Snoop queering up white washed gender identity: http://the-last-moonset.tumblr.com/post/40466145236/girljanitor-the-last-moonset-slay-z
“So the last time someone claimed that they were so femme/inine that they didn’t wear trousers, I pointed out that in Bangladesh – where attire is VERY gender-segregated – the traditional outfit for young women is a salwhar khameez, which is a long tunic and TROUSERS. Super feminine, the hallmark of femininity even. With trousers.
Stuff like this is actually a big part of why I find current conventions of butch/femme really alienating – because they’re so set on Western ideas of masculinity/femininity that any claims of “oh it’s more than what you wear!” ring hollow. What Western queer femininity calls “femme” I call “every woman in my family and they’re all straight s arrows” – and even certain supposedly-femme things such as a greater awareness of appearance is very *masculine* where I come from. (Well, it applies across genders, but vanity is a very manly trait too. My dad has more skincare products than I do.)
And yet sadly, in the very small pockets of queer culture that exists in non-Western countries, everything looks like a carbon copy of the West, down to the butch/femme stereotypes (Westernised, not in local gear). Because “queer” is seen as a Western invention and that’s the only model available. Because, as someone downthread mentioned, if you are not White you are never going to pass no matter what.
And the cycle continues”
Source: http://www.autostraddle.com/beyond-lipstick-143202/#comment-231601
Honestly, if you’re here to fuck up the white-washed gender norms, I’m here for you. If you’re here to honor the people of color gender identities and cultural gender expressions of masculinity and femininity (which also, incidentally fuck up and are in direct conflict with the white washed gender norms) I am here for you all day, every day. And if your notion of butch doesn’t fit with the identity police well…. Sucks for them, but they have their own issues they’ve yet to examine and educate themselves on. I hope the above illustrations of just how varied, intersectional, and just plain flipping-the-script-and-the-bird-to-the-West gendered expressions actually are helps someone who’s figuring themselves out, or just wants to deconstruct all the bullshit they’ve internalized (or both, feel free). Much love.
Yo’ Alex damn right about being comfortable in butchness! I sure the fuck am. I am who I am and no one can say who I AM! Butch to butch or person to person. I love femmes and I treat them like so and that about them. And, no I don’t wear dresses or high heels or make-up but, me…I’m a romantic lover who will treat a femme like a million bucks because she is MY opposite and, I am attracted to her and only her type. My brain; my entire being says it’s wrong to be with someone like me! But, that’s ME…not anyone else. If you are attracted to butch on butch, so be it.
Sash, I am not angry at other Butches. I could care less about how they picture my butchness. I mean, take Studs for example – they are butch also but, just to their own degree. They are who they are internally…and you know what, more power to them if this is who they are. Please understand people…we come in all colors and all extremes! We as butches are all different – we come in all forms and mind set’s but, we are ALL BUTCHES! Simple to remember!!
I think, put simply:
Butch is who you are not what you wear.
It’s how you act not how you look.
Umm so saying you don’t consider somebody a butch is an insult, or it’s harsh or a proof of insecurity? Since when lifestyles became insults or even compliments?
Plus,since you all agree that “butch” as a word and definition has many sides, how could we all agree on who’s butch or not?Like I said it’s only a lifestyle, just like barbie/geek/goth/rocker. I think that you guys are wasting too much energy on it.
Who cares…I think people focus too much on labels. Every lesbian/person is different. Where did these “lesbian labels” come from anyway? We don’t make up countless labels for straight people, do we?…. My question is, what the f is up with them canceling The Real L Word…I know a bunch of lesbians don’t like it, but coming from a small town with your mom talking crap about gays all the time, it has really helped me with my sexuality/coming out.
Just to address a couple things:
I always hear a few people balk at labels. Which is fine, but the problem with insisting that you’re label free (even though I’m totally going to make a necklace that says that for you stubborn people ;)) …. the problem with that is that another word for label is adjective …. in the sense that labeling people is human nature because its a way of describing who you’re talking about. Conversations without labels or adjectives would be a bitch. Imagine this:
“Oh so I saw this human being and they were like, a human. But she was dressed like a human and I thought that she looked really humanly. You’ve got to see this human because she’s so fucking human it drives me crazy.” <---- must read aloud in valley girl accent because that's how I would say it. Where as the same conversation makes more sense when we can use descriptive words, some might labels. So fucking get over the "I don't want to be labeled" thing. It's going to happen. You don't have to like it or approve of it but unless you're this colorless glob of mass, there is something about you that people will use as reference. And as far as the people that think we're "wasting time" talking about this, I disagree. I don't think that any conversation that that sparks debate and possibly a broader understanding and hopefully more tolerance of others choices is a waste of time. I blogged about this because I'm tired of seeing butch friends put down other butch friends based on some crazy criteria that they can't even fully articulate. Not that there isn't some sort of criteria and valid argument that some people maybe are not what they are trying to represent. But I just think that the all out hating on each other is a bit much.
haha what a defence! i’m not judging the fact that “people” judge:P and come on, what is this example you Sasha gave “us” about humans dressed humanly just like humans? People like categorizing people, I think that’s what you meant? Of course it’s suitable, it’s how algebra works. You get people who have similarities and name the group, so that they have an ID. And like a few of you said, Elegy being the first-and-best in this, people like the sense that they belong in several groups or boxes. I do. It’s just like we have different kinds of dogs, collies, huskies, terriers. Just like the starsigns. But this has nothing to do with what I said.
I repeat, how is being butch/femme an insult/compliment? Ms Sasha and most of you guys said that people can un-butch-ify somebody if they are insecure or are jealous of them. And in the same time, you all agree that feminity and masculinity signs differ for everybody. I’m guessing that you have already answered your own question.
Stacy, I agree with most of what you’re saying ….. to each their own. I was mostly directing my previous comment to a couple other people.
Sasha, I agree that everyone labels others. I admit I do it too. I’ve just had issues with my sexuality, in fact I’ve even asked for your advice awhile back, and continue to struggle with self confidence…soo I’m trying really hard to not give a shit what people think. My point is, who cares what other lesbians/people label you. There are so many “butch” stereotypes and labels so screw what other people say cuz the only think that matters is how you identify
Hi S okay I think what’s happening here is that we’re losing some communication through writing that we would understand if we were all talking to one another in a room so yes,I agree with you. to S by the way did I ever get back to you or are you one of the emails that got lost?
To me “label free” will never be about (and never was about) “don’t describe me ever” it’s more about “I don’t need or prescribe to ____” and “don’t call me ____”and definitely about “respect my boundaries.” Like people are taking “identities” and equating that with “labels.”
*Identities* are not just descriptors and labels and adjectives; no, they’re encompassing of who you are. Sexual *identity*, gender *identity.*
We can talk about the importance of saying identity as completely not interchangeable with the word label because in this culture we are not asking people, “So, what’s your sexual label?” “What’s your gender label?”
No, we instead place importance of the question, “How does you lover identify?” (Nod to another post on here).
So it’s weird to me to treat them as the same thing, and that a rejection of a particular label each and every time is equal to rejection of identities- and then equal again to rejection of being labeled (described) in and of itself. Like, people can label you, we know that. Labels are not being positioned as valueless (at least not by me and the people I know, lol). That’s not the point- the point is a person’s right to their autonomy and to say “no, that’s not me.” And to have that respected.
So like if someone *could* be described as X, Y, and/or Z, and they tell me they reject the notion of Y as applied to them, and not to call them that, I’m going to be like, “all right” and respect that. And they don’t have to explain that to me. That’s me, like who the fuck am I, demanding someone to explain their humanity to me, and why I should respect it. Nah, bad move. Like it’s not fucking hard for me to not call someone something they’ve told me not to call them, for whatever reason.
And, just to bring it back since it’s a tangent…. I’m aware that this because more complicated in this community because the names (labels, if you want- pssssh) we give to identities are ALSO capable of being used as adjectives, not only nouns. I know people you could ask of, “are they butch?” and I may reply, “as an adjective” as opposed to a noun. So then we get this very sensitive (not unduly so) clusterfuck of feeling that a rejection of an adjective (label) is an affront to a noun (identity), and no one can seem to communicate or respect (or recognize) the nuance.
TL;DR
Someone saying that they’re “label free” is not equal to saying “down with adjectives!” “Down with the very concept and application of communication!” It’s literally just, “these labels available do not fit me as I am, and no one else is more important than recognizing my humanity- peace.”
And on that note: PEACE, lol. Fun convo.
Haha yes Sasha you did get back to me and helped a lot. This was several months back…if you recall the “advise for a Texas lesbian” post
On identity versus one’s sexual label very interesting indeed. Everyone especially
is bringing up wonderful points, all of which are actually giving me a slight headache! Lol … My original poit of this big was to tell people to stop hatin’ on each other! There. I’m done. Meh! ????
Butche’s shouldn’t have to go through this questioning! A true butch knows what’s up and will treat a woman with respect as such; zero fight is necessary here ladies – for anyone envolved!
We love you – just give us someone to love and talk with…communication is the ultimate key here!
We have feelings too. It’s so simple, ladies… 🙂
…and, I don’t think hate is such a prevalent emotion as people think.
Emotion rules some or our hearts…just find her and you will see your heart shine… 🙂
hatin’ has nothing to do with calling sb a butch or saying that they dont belong in this category… everyone has a different view on what makes a butch.
usually barbie-like straight girls find me really lesbianlike. but everyone else, straight or gay, says i am 100% feminine. and butch girls call me a barbie femme. now is any of them hating me? i think they all compare me to their own idea of being a femme.
maybe the question should be this exactly. when butches struggle on who is a true butch, is it like when men say to each other “you are not man enough”?
Butch = a certain je ne sais quoi. Impossible to describe but I know it when I see it!
I resolve Butch for my self with a scale. I know I believe in labels because I wouldn’t want someone on this scale as a partner who was more butch than me and I’m not very. But I certainly believe that some are more butch or more femme then others, all an equally valid continuum. Anyway, my view: picture a scale with “0” in the middle representing androgyny in the middle with “10” out to each end. I suppose beyond 10 might represent “stone butch” if there are still ones of those around any more. One end of 10 represents femme and the other end of 10 represents butch. For example, I consider myself androgynous because I am close to the middle, BUT 2 marks towards the butch end. My partners have always been 1 or 2 marks from me towards the femme end without being outright femme (not lipstick, dresses or heels). We both are capable of using tools (especially to do art or home projects). We both like to share cooking or gardening. Others have always identified me as the “butch” one in the relationship. But if there is a stigma with being femme, I’ve never had a partner with that strong a femme identity. I look at it like the closer we are on the scale the more we are equal and any dominance is temporary and shifting. We are still clearly two women loving one another, but there is a teeter-totter scale balance.
I have not read through all the comments so others may have said the same thing. I personally think there is an area of denial for those who wish to think of “labels” as negative. Categories in all of nature exist whether they are embraced or not. If anyone has ever used a date site, it is helpful to know where someone stands as it isn’t always apparent via email and it might make a difference to one or both of you. Same for introvert/extrovert/ambivert–can’t tell in an email–do you want to deny those labels also.
Thank you Denise!!!! Love love LOVED your comment. Well said.
Wow, the last time I checked this, it only had 3 comments! I was waiting for a few more people to comment while I gathered my own personal thoughts on the subject…I have a lot of them! A lot of my thoughts are addressing other comments already left.
Angela..the issue is not a matter of “not having it as bad as them”; it is the matter of those trying to claim the butch title that have not and do not earn it. Elegy..butches experience trauma and rage directed at them BECAUSE they embrace their butch identity..not as a way of escaping such experiences. Evie-lipstick and skirts=NOT BUTCH. Jen #1 ..It is important for each of us to embrace the label that we FIT INTO to help younger generations better understand were they fit in. Old Skool Butch..I couldn’t agree with you more, and I’m femme! Most self labeled “butches” don’t deserve the title.
It isn’t a matter of not “butch enough”, it is a matter of butch or not!
Alex..butch is totally opposite of insecure! For you to say to the butches that put down other butches to grow the fuck up is just…wow. When a true, old school butch sees a “pretty boi” trying to claim the title of butch, that they clearly don’t deserve, it isn’t putting them down to express their disgust at having the butch label misrepresented. It is a matter of self respect and self perseverance. My partner is OFOS butch, and she fights everyday to be who she is. She is discriminated against, talked about behind her back AND to her face, feared, misunderstood, considered disgusting by people who are too ignorant to understand, disowned by many of our own lesbian family members, and ridiculed on a daily basis. Simple things that most take for granted..health care, grocery shopping, going out to dinner with the person you love, going out for a drink, going to a movie etc., all of these “simple” things can easily be a nightmare for a TRUE butch who looks the look and walks the walk and talks the talk 24/7, 365 days a year. For a butch who always stays true to herself and never gives in to what society thinks and says she should be and should do..it is simply expressing the fact that they are being disrespected by all of the wanna be butches who like to claim the title but don’t do a damn thing to deserve it.
Jen #2..not to be confused with the other Jen lol..Super awesome Jen! I feel like you were in my head when you wrote your comment. Makeup and dresses-um yeah, not butch. Not paying for your femme? Not very butch like! V.S. lingerie-OMG, can we say f-e-m-i-n-i-n-e-?! I’m femme and I LOVE my V.S., and so does my butch..as long as it is on ME..the femme..where is belongs! (or on the floor after she peels it off lol) Boxer briefs and sports bras please! NO V.S. butchie baby!
Shelby..Your “theory” SUCKS!! A butch is NOTHING like a straight man!!! What world are you from to say that? They don’t act like a man, don’t smell like a man, don’t feel like a man, don’t think like a man, don’t love like a man, and most certainly don’t fuck like any man! Sweetie, you’re 17–learn the real world a little more before saying something so horrendously disrespectful to the entire generation of true Butches. It’s not all mentality either.
Jess..so nice to hear another butch’s perspective.
I certainly don’t see long hair (or braids) as masculine Elegy. I am VERY femme, but wear jeans the majority of the time.
Angela..Butch IS a look too, not JUST how you act.
Butch is in NO way “just a lifestyle” and a true butch could never waste too much energy defending what she fights everyday to defend.
Sasha..”it’s going to happen”! Yes, yes, yes!! Thank you:)
Stacy..how is being butch an insult? For a true butch, it isn’t, it is the highest compliment. However, it is also an insult to a true butch when some pretty boi tries to claim the butch label when they don’t go through the daily trials and fights to earn that label.
Rexie..so simple, yet SO right!
Simply put, in my own opinion as the femme in a very satisfying, successful butch/femme relationship, it really is quite simple. Butch is it’s own gender. You either are, or you aren’t. If you show cleavage, wear dresses or skirts (ever), carry a purse, wear any makeup besides eye liner on occasion, are never mistaken for a man, are never called sir, are never gawked at for using the ladies room, are not hated by most men just for the way you look, can easily be recognized as a woman, wear pretty panties and/or lacy bras, have long fingernails and/or long hair, wear high heeled shoes, have never had a doctor noticeably uncomfortable with treating you b/c they don’t understand what you are, have never been called it, or had someone say– are you a man or a woman, never been called disgusting or a freak etc., if you’ve never been asked “why don’t you just become a man”, …if you have never experienced these things, then you ARE NOT BUTCH!!
My partner has experienced all this and more. She deals with idiots and bigots each and everyday, just for being true to herself and not allowing others to tell her who she should be and what she should and shouldn’t do. No matter what life throws at her, she keeps her head held high and IS butch, every second of every day. She doesn’t back down or give into society and it’s idea of “normal”. There isn’t a femme anywhere in this world more proud of her butch than I am, and there isn’t a femme anywhere who would fight any louder or stronger for all TRUE butches any and everywhere. I’ve said it before, but a true butch is a rare find, and the ultimate treasure to have. To find a real butch and to have the love of that butch is not something to be taken lightly, and should never be taken for granted.
Thank you, Bobbi…
Bobbi, from what you’ve told us about your partner and all the discrimination and hate she encounters, one would think that of all people, she would get what it feels like to be judged. Too bad she just propagates the same kind of ignorance she experiences from ignorant people. What does that make her?
If she “IS butch” like you claim, then another person claiming to be butch that doesn’t fit her criteria, shouldn’t affect her at all. It’s fine if she doesn’t think someone is as butch as her, but to just outright put other lesbians down for claiming an identity that she doesn’t think they have a right to??? Really??? That’s rich! Think about it. Let me ask you, does she tell trans-women that they aren’t real women? Or does she support others doing that to them? Because they don’t fit the criteria for a real woman by some people’s standards?
It’s a slippery slope my friend. You don’t want to be judged by society yet for whatever reason you think it’s OK for YOU to judge others? Why? Because shit rolls down hill? That’s what it sounds like to me. I’m sad for you and anyone in your life that you allow the hate in the world to invade your soul like that. Maybe it’s time to look in the mirror and realize that you’ve become the monsters you fight.
Sorry for the typos writing all that on my phone :/
Ok first of all, I was not even going to comment on this because I really couldn’t be bothered addressing it YET AGAIN. Honestly though Bobbi is MY girlfriend and she does not need to take any heat for defending my feelings on the matter. I will speak for myself when saying that my opinion of your degree of butchness should not affect you. If it does then YOU are the one with an insecurity problem not me. I don’t go chasing lesbians down and telling them my opinions about their butchness. But if you ask my opinion about it you can damn said believe I will give it. If you don’t like it, don’t ask. Bobbi is the best femme a butch could ask for. She does see the things I go through and understands my protective nature toward the term butch. Butch is a term that came from a very masculine haircut in the 1950’s and was coined by that culture. Any other culture’s terms for masculinity are irrelevant to the term butch. I respect what those cultures view as masculine but that is not the same as the term butch. Oh and to answer your question about Transwomen, I consider them often more feminine than bio-females. I have even considered dating them because I AM attracted to girliness. So don’t presume to know what you think you know about butches who protect our label. I have friends who have feminine qualities that I still consider butch overall. But there are some things (like dresses and purses and full make up) that immediately disqualify you. Bobbi made the point perfectly. Butch is a fraternity… a brotherhood or union if you will. And in my eyes you have to earn your butch card through the struggles we all encounter. You can call me judgmental if you want and I don’t really care. Other real butches know what I am talking about. And they are the only ones whose opinions matter to me on this subject because they know what it is to live it.
I believe some butch are intimidated by one another. They believe so strongly in the masculine qualities that they have or consider themselves to have that if they were to ever encounter another butch that may feel the same about their own qualities it’s then more like a threat to one another.
Femmelover..you’re quite welcome.
Alex..again, you ignorant comments astound me. As you know by now, Raye is my
Butch, so um, yeah, she IS Butch! I don’t see how standing up for yourself and not wanting others to disrespect your entire gender and not wanting to be judged, anymore than you already are, based on people who give “Butch” a bad name by claiming the label when they don’t live the label. What does that make her? A very intelligent, proud, respectful BUTCH!
How can you say that someone carrying a purse or wearing a dress etc., but calling themselves Butch, should not affect anyone who truly is a Butch? How could it not? A real Butch goes through SO much bullshit by representing what it means to be Butch, then you have some pretty boi calling themselves Butch while carrying their purse or fixing their makeup. This is a direct slap in the face to someone like Raye, and to the femmes who love our Butches and lay witness to the hatred they are faced with. I believe your question concerning Transwomen was already answered.
As for you saying I don’t want to be judged in the world..we are all judged in one way or another. You’re opinion doesn’t matter to me, and I sure as hell don’t need you feeling sorry for me. When I look in the mirror, I am proud of what I see, and when I look at my partner, I couldn’t be more proud of who and what she is. I also don’t consider it judgement or hate to expect people to show pride in their label. I also don’t consider it judging or hating someone to say that they don’t accurately depict a certain label. I truly believe that Butch is one of the hardest, if not THE hardest label to claim, and in doing so, you have to be willing and ready to accept all that comes with it. You can’t just pick and choose characteristics that appeal to you, and you can’t “turn it on” or “turn it off”; you can’t choose to “butch up” one day and take the easy road the next. That is disrespectful to all true Butches who live their label day in and day out.
Raye, as always, I appreciate your desire to defend me and take the heat off of me, but I wrote my initial comment based on MY feelings on the subject, as a femme who is fiercely loyal to the Butch gender. While I obviously don’t know what it is like to live as a Butch, I believe that I have a pretty good grasp on what kind of person it takes to claim and represent the label.
I have stood up for and defended the Butch gender in the past and, will never hesitate to do so. Obviously I am a little quicker to defend the amazing wonderful Butch that I share my life with, but that is to be expected. 😉
@ Elegy I just now read your comment. Fucking brilliant and so true. I’m half Samoan and Samoan men wear lava lavas …meh ich if you’re not familiar with it is a cloth wrapped around their waist, it’s sort of like a sarong but not not really.
Anyways, I would be hard pressed to find someone that wouldn’t consider my 6ft 4 cousins that play pro football to not be masculine. Yet they have long hair and wear an e’lava lava at family events and at home. So yes,this entire convo is totally screwed toward the western egocentric mindset. However having said that, most of us are living in the Western world and have been preconditioned to these precepts.
We could talk in circles forever about this.
Then my wife who was a Marine and served in Iraq, was the only female on the Marine Corps boxing team, was female athlete of the year for Camp Pendleton, currently works for DHS, brings home the vegie bacon, treats me like a queen and takes care of me better then anyone ever could!!!Is not considered butch by some because she does not wear men’s clothing.
I love butches. It’s complicated. I respect that.
I love how people like Sonya make the assumption that we are somehow threatened just because we disagree with someone. I am not threatened by any butch, in fact I will be the first to call one my brother from another mother. Yet again this is probably someone who is not butch and probably doesnt even date butches but trying to speak as to what we think or feel. Give it a rest.
“Elegy..butches experience trauma and rage directed at them BECAUSE they embrace their butch identity..not as a way of escaping such experiences. ”
That doesn’t contradict what I said, nor did I say it was a means of escaping those experiences (actually, the sentence you’re referring to is in reference to those experiences being inescapable, and happening specifically because that person is being exactly who they are to their core).
“I certainly don’t see long hair (or braids) as masculine Elegy.”
We don’t need you to. They are. They have cultural significance that cannot be discounted or lost through assimilation, and in that context they are.
“Elegy I just now read your comment. Fucking brilliant and so true. I’m half Samoan and Samoan men wear lava lavas …meh ich if you’re not familiar with it is a cloth wrapped around their waist, it’s sort of like a sarong but not not really.”
Ah! Thanks for explaining this. -Files away- I just…. There are so many different traditions that get lost and misinterpreted, so I enjoy having the opportunity to hear about them, and to confirm that they’re not lost.
“Anyways, I would be hard pressed to find someone that wouldn’t consider my 6ft 4 cousins that play pro football to not be masculine. Yet they have long hair and wear an e’lava lava at family events and at home. So yes,this entire convo is totally screwed toward the western egocentric mindset. However having said that, most of us are living in the Western world and have been preconditioned to these precepts. ”
Yeah, I agree that it’s screwed (skewed?) towards a “Western egocentric mindset” and I understand that we’ve been conditioned for it. There’s actually a movement (which I believe to be Indigenous and People of Color founded) called Decolonize that seeks to address this, particularly when it comes to internalizing these mindsets. Part of why I brought it up is because the conversation centers around masculinity, and if one discounts the various and valid experiences and traditions of masculinity of people of color (who do not usually interpret masculinity in the same way that has been pushed by mainstreamed culture) who also identify as butch, it starts to get very white-washed and exclusionary (in a white supremacist sense).
“We could talk in circles forever about this.”
We could! If I ever get out to Cali I’d love to chat about this! For me, it’s like this bottom line, and it’s the same way I interpret the gender binary (which is also based in colonialism): People who live and interpret themselves within the binary are valid, people who live and interpret themselves outside of it are valid. People have a right to define that for themselves. And, people have a right to seek out partnerships that fulfill them. Due to differences in culture (even within the same country, especially one as mixed as the USA), we will find a variety of definitions, markers, and blueprints for what is masculine and what is feminine- none are wrong, and one may be the opposite of the other without invalidating it; opposites can coexist as representations of the same side of the scale. That’s pretty much it- if you want someone who fits your particular type of butch, that’s totally valid and more power to you. Just don’t invalidate another type of butch in the process.
“I love butches. It’s complicated. I respect that.”
Amen. 😉
I’m not sure why butches are so hard on each other either. I feel as long as you like who you are, that’s good enough. One person might think a butch should be exactly like a guy and the other might think that she can wear pretty pink dresses but still be butch. I’ve given up on trying to find my own “label” so to speak cuz I half ass fit too many
Can I be a metrosexual butch or a renaissence Butch? I don’t own any dresses or make-up but I’m a good cook, sew functionally, own pink shirts, don’t mind housekeeping and can change a diaper. On the other hand, my skill sets additionally include torque wrenches,chainsaws, splitting mauls, circular saws, ram sets. But I have NO atheletic skills…maybe I’m more of an Alan Alda-type butch?