Why don’t femmes pay?
When we were up in Oregon on our road trip to visit Remi’s family, we stopped by her sister’s work. It’s a pretty small town and I’m pretty sure we were the only lesbian couple walking around town holding hands. After we left, her sister was swarmed by the people in her office. One girl got up the nerve to ask what everyone else was wondering, “When your sister and her ‘friend’ go out, who pays?”
Hahahaha …… that was the biggest question? Not, “Is your sister gay?” Because apparently that’s obvious. But who pays was the question of the day. To which her sister answered, “Ummm …. I think my sister pays.”
Which brings me to the topic of today’s blog, well actually, it’s a few things.
1. How come when we go out to eat, the waiter ALWAYS puts the bill in front of Remi.
2. Why do people automatically assume that she pays for everything and that I never pay for anything?
3. But more then that, why is that the case? Why does she insist on paying and why do most femme’s expect that their date picks up the bill?
When I first came out and started dating women, I never knew who was supposed to pay. So just to be polite and avoid that awkward few moments when you’re both looking at the bill in the middle of the table, I would snatch it up before she had the chance to.
But as time went on and I found my place within the lesbian community I became classified as “Femme.” I say that I became classified because I think these arbitrary labels we use are more given to us in some cases, then anything else. I didn’t set out and say, “I think I’m going to be a femme today. I want to be classified as high maintenance, wear lipstick even at home and never pay for another meal.” Nope, none of that ever crossed my mind.
I did realize however that other women who were already established within their own lesbian labels, saw me and immediately put me in whichever little box they thought I fit into, according to their own comfort zone. Which seemed to be “femme” in almost every case.
I realized that I was comfortable in this “role” most of the time and that whenever I wanted to be something that didn’t fit that label, the women in my life never really minded. With the exception of butches. In my experience, when a butch dates a femme, that femme better stay in her little box or else. But that’s another story.
Wow, when I get off on a tangent I can really get off track. Sorry ladies. Back to my original blog …. why don’t femmes pay?
Are the women who date femmes OK with this? Do they just expect it or do they actually enjoy it?
I’ve always felt that whoever controls the money controls a lot more then just that. How does this translate between women? When one woman is always the one who pays for things, does she control a larger portion of the relationship? Is she paying for power over her lover? Or am I just over thinking this?
One last note, even if femmes don’t pay for dinner, that doesn’t mean they don’t make up for it in other ways.
We’re well past dating, so all of our money is in joint accounts. So, I guess the question for us, the, is who pulls out the wallet? I guess Mo does, but it’s still not everytime. It may be just easier — her wallet is in her pocket and I normally have to go hunting for mine in my bag.
That said, I never drive.
LMAO …. that’s hilarious, I NEVER drive either! Huh.
Femme’s don’t pay because we spend all our money on looking good for our girlfriends! It ain’t cheap staying all dolled up, waxed, polished and ready for anything. Any good butch is happy to pay for dinner as long as her woman looks good on her arm.
I’m a femme and I pay for everything. But then again. I o;y date other femmes who may be femmier than I am.
I’m a femme and I don’t really pay for anything but that’s because I date STRONG butch women. Not just physically strong but strong personalities and in every way. They wouldn’t be caught dead letting a lady pay.
Yet another way you come off like a bitch Sasha. You’re either lying that you NEVER have to pay for anything or you’re really THAT good in bed. Well? Which one is it? I know enough of your ex’s comment on this damn thing. Maybe one of them will let us know, if they’re not too bitter to be honest. Because let’s face it Sasha, most of your ex’s seem to be pretty fucking angry at you.
I don’t kiss and tell but Sash, if you’re ever free for a night, give me a call. From what I remember you’re worth the price of admission. LOL. And I’ll open the door for you
Wow, that’s pretty low of SheKnowsMe to say something like that. Ifyou really did ever sleep with Sasha I can see why she’s not with you anymore. What an ass.
Anonymous, I didn’t mean I NEVER pay for anything. But the reality is that I’m with a woman who usually insists on paying when we go out. I don’t know why she’s like that, but I don’t mind. Would you? But I also try really hard to take care of her in other ways and now that we live together that’s a little easier in the day to day things I can do to show her how much I appreciate her.
I’m a strong butch and I wouldn’t be caught dead letting one of you little girls pay for anything on my watch. I date femmes because I love everything about them. I love the way they look, smell, taste and the helplessness I see in them. I tried to date Sasha because she puts off a helpless femme in distress vibe. She’s even written about it and I think thats fucking hot as hell and so do a lot of strong women. Who wouldn’t want to come to the rescue of something like that?! I’m happy to be repaid in the bedroom. Any helpless femmes reading this??? Hit me back.
I’m not a butch but I’m not a femme by a long shot. Somehow I always end up paying for everything too. But I don’t mind. I like being able to court a woman and make her feel special. Maybe I’m just a hopeless romantic but I even open car doors for my dates. I think if a woman deserves to be taken out by me, she deserves to be treated right. That’s just me.
Hot femmes don’t pay. Ugly ones usually do.
I think that whoever pays does have more power in the relationship. If you let Remi pay or maybe I should say if Remi WON’T let you pay then she has more power in the relationship than you do. But maybe you’re OK with that? Are you one of those women that needs to be taken care of?
I always pay. If I couldn’t pay for my date, I wouldn’t ask her out. It’s perfectly fine that a femme doesn’t expect to pay. But she should expect to put out later in the night. Truth hurts ladies. But you know I’m right.
Sasha, if you were my woman you’d NEVER pay for a thing EVER. I don’t blame Remi for picking up the tab. She probably knows what she’s got when she takes you home so don’t sweat it that she pays for shit. From what you write it seems like you try to show her you care and appreciate her, that’s probably all she wants. If she felt like you didn’t appreciate her I’m sure she wouldn’t be so fast to take care of you in those ways. It all works out in the end sweetie, just sit back and look pretty. That’s your job. We’re ok with it. you should be too.
I’m a lesbian trapped in a man’s body and from it sounds like reading your blog you’re just in a relationship as if you were with a man. The lady just doesn’t pay. Not saying that Remi isn’t a lady too. I’m sure she is, since you’re both women. But my point is, she’s a FUCKIN MARINE. You’re a belly dancer. HELLOOOO????
I’m a femme and I’d still end up paying if I went out with you Sasha. I don’t know why, I don’t even know you but I think if I asked you out I would pay. Usually that’s how I figure out who pays. Who does the asking does the paying. I bet you never do the asking. So yo u never pay.
Pretty femmes don’t pay for dinner or drinks and that sucks if you’re not a femme and you don’t have a great paying job. But it’s just the way it is. It has to do with self-respect. If I only had twenty bucks in my wallet I’d spend it on a girl before I let her know I didnt have any money. I don’t want her to think I’m weak or a loser. So I always pay. I’m not a butch either. I’m a tomboi or whatever. I have short hair, I don’t wear makeup but I’m not a butch BUTCH. I still expect to pay on dates. That’s just the way I am.
If Remi pays for everything or mostly everything you should let her. That’s part of her identity. It is with me anyways. If a girl tries to pay for me I get insulted. I feel like she thinks I can’t do it. Which is really a turn off. But a huge turn on is when a hot chick lets me do something nice for her. I wouldn’t do it if I didn’t want to and I bet it’s the same with Remi.
I think it’s hot you talk about topic others would shy away from. You should go out with me. Did I forget to tell you, I’m a Marine too. I know how you love Marines.
I’m not exactly a butch.. but my feeling on this is… like the previous comments… I am a big romantic at heart.. if I like a woman.. enough to ask her out.. I would pay for everything.. picking her up.. meeting her at the door with a couple of daisies and a wink.. putting my hand in the small of her back as we walked into the restaurant.. she would feel special.. I wouldn’t expect anything in return.. but good conversation.. a good first or second date.. lol the sex comes later.
I never paid for anything when we were dating. Uh does that mean you were the butch, Sasha? My my how things change. Guess what, I still don’t pay for anything. Guess I’ve just got it like that. Guess you were sort of butch in those suits you used to wear.
I’m a Marine have been for 8 years. I would have to say that as a Marine I would never allow you to pay for anything. It would go against everything I’m proud of being. If I ask a woman out, it’s because I want to treat her right. Not because I need her to pay for me. That’s bullshit. If your gf is a Marine she probably agrees with me. However I don’t get how she can let you dance. I wouldn’t be able to do that.
If it meant a chance at getting in your panties I would whip out the big bucks right quick. believe that.
Because pillow princesses never pay.
I don’t feel like a butch but I must look like one because everyone else calls me one. I always pay and it’s fine with me. If I get to take out a beautiful woman I’m more then happy to pay for everything. You Miss Sasha are very beautiful. I’m sure that women are happy to buy you dinner or whatever your little heart desires if they think it’ll get them in the door. I would. Remi’s a lucky bastard.
You always paid for me when we went out. Guess that gave you the idea that you had the right to be a bitch. Maybe Remi pays to keep your ass in check.
Sasha, not to get too personal and you don’t have to answer but I’ve read ALL your blogs and didn’t Remi move into YOUR house? I’m curious as how the household expenses work out between you two? Does she pay all the rent? Or do you split it? Because that could weigh heavy on her if she does. Or do you pay the rent since it was your place to begin with? If it’s like that then you are contributing equally. It all depends. Relationships are more then the dinner check. I’m sure you two will work out your places. It just takes a little time to fall into place.
I’m curious like Avid. How are the bills split? If things are truly 50-50 then you, sasha, have no need to worry .. right?
The first 2 things that popped into my mind were: • It’s an engrained “social norm” for men to pay when taking a woman out to eat. Thus, the tab goes to the more mascueline one. • It’s a basic “Chivalrous Notion” sending the message, “I will take care of you”. I’m a soft-butch with a generous nature; however, if my date or gf wanted to pay, I allow them that opportunity. Because think about it, don’t we all want to be able to “treat” another in kind ? I do. Also, that reciprocity keeps a “power struggle” from emerging.
“In my experience, when a butch dates a femme, that femme better stay in her little box or else. But that’s another story.”
Wow, really?! That sucks. Anyone, regardless of label should NOT feel like a kept woman! Yikes!
I’m a soft butch/futch who enjoys paying for dinner and finds it ADORABLE when my femme date pays for me. Just because I prefer Nikes over heels doesn’t mean that I don’t want to be treated sometimes. Plus the femme side of me is always hopeful someone will buy me flowers every now and then or do similar romantic gestures towards me.
Is it really too much to ask that we all recognize a balance in ourselves when it comes to butch/femme dynamics? I shave, wax, etc etc just like the next femme but prefer to shop in the men’s section at H&M. Go figure.
And if any of you nice femme need a date, hit me up, lol.
Thanks for an always entertaining and insightful blog Sasha.
wow sash seems like you really struck a nerve!! these butches need to enroll in a leykis 101 crash course?! pay for a date? really? girls will “play nice” as long as you treat them the way they want to be treated….you gotta be a jerk to them. nice guys finish last all the time; money or no money. ps loved the comment the point is she’s a fucking marine and you’re a belly dancer hahaha
Ok wow, didn’t expect such a strong response to this particular blog. But I will address a couple comments. Avid and Dawg wanna know how the household expenses are split. While at first I felt that was a little too personal, I quickly realized that I regularly blog about things that are “too personal” so why be a hypocrite now? ….. So here it goes ….. I believe I’ve blogged about it before anyways, I do happen to own my own little house. So I think it would be extremely tacky of me to ask my GF to pay me rent. Of course she’s offered to kick in something on a regular basis towards the bills, but I won’t let her. Not saying that I won’t let her at some future date far in the future if I ever really need it. But right now I’ve got the house and that part (utilities and what not handled) so no we don’t share those expenses. …. but it doesn’t change the fact that when we go out (which is A LOT) she still pays for everything and I NEVER have to drive.
I think it’s kind of silly how lesbians are so ingrained into “their roles”. I mean, if you’re butch and that’s your thing, fine. I’m sure you’ll have a lot of women out there who will let you pay for them. Sounds like living life out in a drill team (or dance!) routine. Maybe focusing on all the little rituals (sexual, monetary, etc.) of these roles provides a needed distraction from the real task: having a relationship. Everyone likes distraction, but it eventually creates problems, not solves them.
I think it’s silly to base who pays on butch or femme. Part of why I would never marry if it were legal is that there is a sort of control in joining bank accounts, in allowing your lover unfettered access to your money. If I’m doing really well, then yes, I enjoy paying, I enjoy being able to treat someone (I’d probably be classified as a very soft butch). But even if I were rolling in dough, having to pay every. single. time. can start to be extremely draining. If the person is generous in other ways, of course, then it’s not as big of a deal. I think it really just comes down to how much give and take there is. I’ve been “gentlemanly” before and bought drinks, for example, expecting her to get the next round, and when she didn’t though I was perfectly polite I was mentally calculating how many meals I’d have to skip the next day to make up for it. What really gets to me is being in a relationship where the other person is making a ton and insists on going nice places but never pays. I think it should be based on the two people’s resources, not butch or femme.
If I had a woman that looked like you in my bed, I would be happy to go to work every day and come home and hand you my paycheck. What is the point in having money if you’re alone? All I ever wanted and still do is a beautiful and kind woman to spend my life with. I’m more then happy to support her financially if that means she loves me, takes care of me and doesn’t leave. I don’t care of that sounds pathetic to some of you, but i’m a bit older and wiser now and I’ve made a lot of mistakes. I know what a good woman’s worth and a beautiful woman that’s good, well that’s really rare and she’s worth all I can give her to keep her happy because having her would make me happy.
So to any of your butches who are lucky enough to have a lovely companion by your side don’t be so stupid to think that there’s not at least 10 other butches waiting in line for you to slack on your job of taking care of her and she knows it.
Just go to work with a smile and give her what she needs. It’s worth it to have someone to come home to at the end of the day.
I am of those girls that move like ballet dancers, i am as girly as it can get. And i date a masculine girl…ok, a butch, but i don’t like to call her that, cuz her hart is soft and sweet, and that tag sounds rough to me.
So we have a deal: If i propose to eat out, i pay, and if she does, she pays.
I like to pay for her, i did it a lot the first year, but it gets expensif, so we came up with this deal, it works. She doesn’t mind if i pay, i think it’s her way of being the girl in the relationship without compromizing her masculine personality.
Femmes love to do this things too. I would be offended if my lady payed for me all the time. I’m her man just as much even if i don’t looke like one. I have a pride as well.
I let her do other some things for me anyways, like opening doors and holding my hand when i get out of the car. I even wear a dress to partys cuz i know she will dress pants and will get offended if i do two.
What counts, it’s that at the end, everything is paid equal. I paid diner, she paids next time, or the movie, or the rental of a movie, or the coffe the next morning.
I wouldn’t like to make her pay every time i feel like going out, money doesn’t fall down with the rain. So if i want something i pay for it. What if i want to go somewhere that she can’t afford, of if she feels like eating at a big restauret and i’m tight that month? I pay for her when i want to go somewhere with her.
Except on birthdays, but i think ahead so i can pay her what ever she wants.
Happiness doesn’t come from what a woman can buy for me, it comes from the time spent together… I feel sad for those that feel like they have to make their girl a princess because it’s not the way it goes, we are lesbians, no mater how masculine a girl is, she should be treated like a princess two. It’s two spoild princesses together, not just one.
I want someone to love me and not count on what she gives me. But i need her to accept and EXPECT the same treatment.
I love my girlfriend for that, she lets me be her wife, her man, her mom and her daughter all at the same time. I feel girly when she opens a jar of Jam of me, and strong when she asks me to repair something arround the house. Life is about balance.
Femme’s don’t pay because that’s just the way the world works babe. We pay because we want to and it makes us feel good to be able to do that. We don’t pay because you expect it or because we “should” we pay because we work hard to be able to provide for our women so just enjoy it. Treat us right in your way and we’ll treat you right in ours. It’s a balance.
You know….I agree that this thing boils down to resources. I know when I dated my ex girlfriend (we were both equally femme) she would pay most times and that was simply because I was a broke ass college student and she was rolling in the doe working full-time. I really don’t think her paying gave her any more power in the relationship.. but I think her age did (she was 5 years older than me)?
Now that I’m single, I’m just an avid believer in going dutch. Everybody should just hold their own weight which is why women should date women of similar caliber. Date someone that makes as much as you, or that is similarly situated as you..makes things run a lot smoother!
Well now an interesting one. I have to say its varied for me. With my last relationship, we usually split bills. But I mostly drove. Previous 2 relationships, I paid (and drove). One before the, SHE paid (we both drove). And before that again, SHE paid AND drove.
Confused? I hope so.
Ive seen you naked and wet …. in my pool
…. I know why you don’t have to pay. lol.
LMFAO this shit is funny considering I just tried to buy you a book today at B&N and I had JUST met you! But you looked so sad and I wanted to cheer you up and make you smile.
But seriously, you and women like you don’t pay because you don’t have to. As perfectly demonstrated earlier today before I even knew you wrote this. How funny.
Why don’t femmes pay or why doesn’t Sasha pay? Because women like you never HAVE to pay. There’s always, ALWAYS going to be someone, man, woman, butch or boi willing and wanting to pick up the tab to make you smile or make you stay. Period.
Funny this came up on top of your blog and I clicked into it. I’m femme and I like androgynous/soft butch/butch women. A straight female friend of mine asked me the other day “but who pays?” So far, since coming out, I’ve been on a few dates and each of my dates has been in the same boat as me – unemployed and/or struggling (I live in NYC btw, it’s not hard to be struggling here), so we’ve split the bill.
I joked to my friend that “my budget really wishes I was straight”, acknowledging that men usually pay for the bill. Granted, I HATED that because I always felt like a cheap whore, expected to put out for the price of a dinner I didn’t really even want anyway.
I’m not sure what would happen if I started dating someone who could pay for me regularly. I’m unemployed right now, so I would have no choice but to let them pay. However, my independence is so important to me and I can’t imagine if I was gainfully employed how I would feel if my girl paid for me all the time (especially as I hate cooking and I’m not very domestic).
The paying question really does create a power struggle, which was easily answered in the past by male-female roles, meaning women didn’t work so they had no choice but to let a man pay for them. As we women are able to work now (and be openly gay), parsing this is so hard. I don’t have enough experience with dating women to really answer this or counter it right now, but I do wonder about it because as much as I love being femme and having a masculine woman as my love, I also love being fiercely independent and owing nothing to no one, especially someone I’m sleeping with.
i’ve been date a girl for two years, that i’m head over heels for, but it bothers me that she never offers to pick up the bill or to even go dutch. I also cover all house bills. Am I an ass for letting this bother me?
I don’t think you’re an ass for letting it bother you. As indicated by the previous comments, some people prefer that way of life. If it’s not for you, it’s not for you, and I think you’d be completely within your right to renegotiate how the finances are spent (i.e. if you’re expected to pay for the house bills, she pays for eating out- or you split the house bills in such a way that makes you both comfortable).
@WWG – I really love your honesty in all things said above. You are truly special – Woman! How are things going with you now? Are you ok?
My 2 cents: I am (very) new to Butch-Femme relationships, so new that I have yet to date a butch. (They seem to be scarce around here.) But on my experience with dating, it was usually dutch or he paid. But ethier way, it was arranged before hand. (to get rid of that awkward moment.lol) When starting to get to know someone, I prefer paying for my own stuff. If my ‘special friend’ is having financial difficulties, I will insist on paying for my stuff, and sometimes paying for both.
Yeah, I am femme,(what I like to call moderately femme.)and mostly bottom/sub, but I am just as protective of my ‘special friend’ as they are of me, including financial diffuculties, got no problems to eating fast food for dinner and going to the $1 movies….(as long as that isn’t all we do on our dates. I can be a cheap date,but I also like my date having an imagination as to what to do.
As for putting out….lol that’s the number 1 reason why it is arranged before hand who pays, unless I am sure that I want to have ANY sort of intimate activities with my date,I insist on going dutch.
Stuck here in Michigan, scarcely any butches around and the few I meet are:not into femmes, prefer the high/ultra femmes,or are bottoms. Nothing wrong with any of those, *grins* Just makes it more difficult.
Anyone in Michigan/Great Lakes area, give me a shout out!
starmaiden26@yahoo.com
I think who pays has a lot to do with how you were raised.. I think it is cute we have to try and define this when everyone else basically has a manual to follow based on societal “norms.” I think if you are a butch and you have looked up to or were raised by strong male figures, you are going to fall into a “like-father-like-son” cycle. It is the rubric you follow to know you are doing a great job. On the opposite end of the spectrum most femmes are proud and independent women who tend to admire or have modeled themselves after the same. Breaking the sexist barriers of yesterday has done wonderful things for women. I am worried however that chivalry is being over looked. The masculine pillar in the relationship will pay….. For everything….. End of discussion. If you let us open doors for you… And carry the heavy stuff…. Then what is wrong with letting us pay? I appreciate the reach toward the purse or whatever you carry, and I love to see you bite your lower lip and say I’ll pay you back later wink**
For me personally I have worked hard to attain the intellectual, professional and emotional stability that allows me to compete in the wild kingdom called the dating scene. If I were a peacock I would show you the biggest sexiest feathers you have ever seen and you would melt and moisten at it and allow me to mate with you. But I don’t have feathers I have a big sexy debit card and I will spend it like crazy to show off for you. It’s a compliment. And for the record we should be paying for the primp work too… Everyone covers the big stuff;vacations, weddings, BILLS, homes, cars. But dates are butch domain. And it is an honor. Xoxo to all of you powerful femmes.
Dang, Rocky. I just melted at those peacock feathers. With your philosophies you should have no problem whatsoever in finding a femme. Why are you still single?
As a femme, I can say that I have never paid for a date. First of all, for some reason, the food server always places the bill next to her. I have tried tp pay a few times to be polite, but the butches grabbed the bill and told me in no uncertain terms that they were paying. I guess maybe it makes them feel good to pay. From my end, it makes me feel very flattered, treasured, and feminine. In a way, we both invest in the situation in our own ways. I spend hours getting ready with hair, makeup and just the right outfit, trying my best to look my absolute prettiest for her. By paying the bill, I guess she is expressing her appreciation for my efforts while pounding her chilvalrous chest. Plus, I can tell you that watching her pay gives me little butterflies in my tummy and warm tingles somewhere else. So, by the time we reach the car, there is a good chance that her chivalry will lead to a sweet thank you kiss from me.
I am a soft butch and would like a femme (but not too femme)but one who gives and receives in a mutural manner. I partner in every way in all areas. i think its about us or we not you or I and we take care of life together.
I consider myself androgynous, as I can be mistaken for either a gay man or a woman. Those who know me are shocked I get mistaken for a male, but I don’t mind, my gender is quite fluid at times, and it’s usually quite amusing when a little old lady thanks the ‘handsome young man’. That being said, I do not consider myself butch in any way, but in my last relationship this is obviously the role my ex thought I should be in. There was also a somewhat large age gap of 7 years. This came into play more and more as the relationship continued and then became warped. In the beginning it was good, and besides the initial drinks we had she never wanted to pay. Ever. She was not overly femme, but I guess because I’m less feminine than her, I was supposed to pay. And like it. I believe in an equal partnership. Nothing wrong with sharing. But no, I got reamed out once because she thought I should love to pay for her all the time, and it was pretty much my ‘duty’. I am now in a much more egalitarian relationship where we usually pay for our own things, but otherwise it’s based on who has the money for what we’re doing, be it a movie, or food. Maintaining individuality, while being in a loving relationship.
As a femme who has only dated femmes, this butch/femme dynamic is foreign to me. If the femme makes multiples more money than the butch, does the the butch still generally pay? If so, why?
It’s a gender role thing. The butch (man in the relationship) is expected to care for the femme (female in the relationship) which includes financially
I’m femme, but I so love to alternate paying and planning dates.
“As a femme who has only dated femmes, this butch/femme dynamic is foreign to me. If the femme makes multiples more money than the butch, does the the butch still generally pay? If so, why?”
That wouldn’t make any sense to me. In that case, it would make more sense from a general standpoint for the femme to pay the major bills, and for the butch half to pay for the less expensive things that she can afford. She can show her affection and proactive qualities in ways that don’t debilitate the relationship financially.
In this economy and day an age balance us best without the butch always feeling she “has” to pay for everything every time and every date. That just seems too much to put on one part of a two part couple.
I think each situation and relationship has to deal with this differently. Im femme and when I dated femmes I ALWAYS PAID.
But as soon as I started dating butches they wouldn’t let me pay even when I tried. In fact, it caused some fights and they told me I was making them look bad for trying to pay but I was just trying to be nice! They even told me that by me trying to pay, it was basically me saying publicly that I was more successful then they were.
So when I dated a broke ass butch who wouldn’t let me pay, we stayed in A LOT, rented movies and ate spaghetti. I was fine with that because it wasn’t about money for me, but that’s how one relationship was.
When I started dating Remi I had a little more money then her, but she wouldn’t let me pay either!!! Over the years her career tookoff and money isn’t a big deal anymore. But even though all the money I have in my purse is still from her and basically hers, she still won’t let me look like I’m paying for anything! She thinks it makes her look bad if it even appears that I’m paying and she’s not.
Do any other butches or tombois feel like that?
I kinda do. It would make me feel cheap. See, that’s exactly why I haven’t even bothered going on any dates lately. I’m broke. If I can’t afford to pay, I don’t even go. It sucks in many ways but gotta live with it. I won’t be a stay at home mom forever
“But even though all the money I have in my purse is still from her and basically hers, she still won’t let me look like I’m paying for anything! She thinks it makes her look bad if it even appears that I’m paying and she’s not.
Do any other butches or tombois feel like that?”
Yes. As Lee “ButchKitty” said, “If I can’t afford to pay, I don’t even go.” I would feel like such a loser asking a girl out on a date and not being able to pay for the both of us. I’m not saying all butches, tombois, and other masculine-of-center folks who don’t pay for dates are losers; I’m simply saying I’d personally feel like one in that situation.
I also consider myself to be old fashioned/old school and a gentleman… under normal circumstances (huge financial gaps and similar things not included) what kind of gentle(wo)man doesn’t pay to take his/her lady out?
I almost always do the asking. On the occasion where the asking is mutual (or she asks), I will still pay and most likely do the planning around it to make our date extra special. The kind of woman I like usually wants to be paid for, anyway. While I don’t want someone incredibly servile and submissive, I’m not so fond of aggressive women, either. I prefer the femme-types who know what they want and deserve; the ones who go after it without shame or apology. The kind of femme I like enjoys being femme and playing that role with me.
lol this will be a neverending debate… I always pay. Period. Don’t argue. Nine times out of ten I make more money anyway and would feel like a jerk letting a woman come out of pocket for a date when I know she could better use that money for stuff she needs or her kids or whatever. And when I do the asking, I expect to pay. It is that simple. I do it not only for lovers but female friends who are struggling to make ends meet. I don’t let my grandma pay when I take her out to dinner, why would I let a date pay? Are they not both equally cherished in different ways? I love sharing my blessings with the people I love. It is not an ego thing, it is a show of affection. I have it to give and I am abundantly blessed. Let me do it. It makes me feel good and I don’t want anything in return but a kiss or a hug as an acknowledgment of my affection. My grandma understands this. She always offers to pay but does not fight me when I tell her in no uncertain terms that hell would freeze over first. She smiles and hugs me and thanks me for loving her and wanting to care for her. Why can’t girls of this generation get it too?
I love you, Raye. How’s that for repayment? The fact you are unselfish with your blessings, and share them with others, reveals the core of your heart. = ) Just as we need more people understanding of your type of nature, we also need more people who possess it. Not sure they are exclusive of the other. If we had more people like you, would more then appreciate it? Or if more appreciated it, would there be more like you? In either case, more is more.
“I love sharing my blessings with the people I love. It is not an ego thing, it is a show of affection. I have it to give and I am abundantly blessed. Let me do it. It makes me feel good and I don’t want anything in return but a kiss or a hug as an acknowledgment of my affection.”
Well said, Raye. The good feeling that comes from treating someone and sharing one’s good fortune is not exclusive to butches, It is a human characteristic. That is why I don’t get butches’ seeming reluctance or outright refusal to allow a femme to treat them and care for them in the same way, even in circumstances where the butch earns way less than their femme.
So, at the risk of being provocative, isn’t the ‘butches always pay for their femmes no matter what’ attitude expressed by some others above really more about power and/or a carryover from traditional male/female relationships based on gender defined roles, economic disparity and inequality?
And, at the risk of inciting a riot on a sleepy August night (by femmes and butches alike), isn’t it time to let those attitudes go? It seems to me they have no place in a modern relationship of equals.
“And, at the risk of inciting a riot on a sleepy August night (by femmes and butches alike), isn’t it time to let those attitudes go? It seems to me they have no place in a modern relationship of equals.”
I already covered the original point so I’ll just say this:
Why, based on the premise that modern relationships are equal, would you assume that butch-femme relationships are not? Because of a who’s paying stipulation? Both the butch and femme want this to happen so in that matter they are equals. For the previous, I’m not operating off of your power/carry-over position since it was a question, not an assumed fact, nor am I operating off of your originally posed scenario because you’re now talking about butch-femme in general.
If the femme wants to pay and the butches outright refuses for whatever reason (pride, reputation, love) and both refuse to budge then it’s a standoff. They may just be incompatible and should move on as it’s a boundary issue for them both. They’ll only end up feeling frustrated, invalidated and unheard unless and until someone concedes.
If it works for you, or more specially for someone *other* than you, then I see no reason to draw the conclusion that it has no place in a modern relationship of equals.
Kate I think the issue is that we as butches would rather you show your affection in a way that doesn’t make us feel “protected” or “provided for” because we are comfortable being the protectors and providers. If you love what we are and who we are, then don’t try to make us into something we are not. Don’t try to force us to want it just because you do. It is fundamental to the butch/femme dynamic and you are trying to undermine that when you try to change that. We don’t feel like you appreciate who we are and how we do things when you try to change it. We LIKE the traditional roles and we want women who love us for that. If you don’t then you might be happier with someone who is not an old school butch looking for a classic femme. We appreciate that they adore us for being the way we are and we don’t look at it as a power struggle. It is a compatibility thing. The girl I love does not want to be provided for by me but she doesn’t attempt to fight me for the check, I assume because she knows this is my desire to care for her and wants me to feel loved, appreciated and comfortable. She simply kisses me and rubs my thigh under the table and this makes me swoon. Stop trying to convince us to be someone we don’t want to be. If you want us, then show us affection the way we want it shown to us. And we will return the favor.
well said Elegy… I agree.
oh and Rexie? I love you too darlin. <3
I think that the “who pays” issue has less to do with money, actually almost nothing to do with actual finances and more to do with the type of relationship both people are searching out.
In a “traditional” butch/femme dynamic, the roles of each person is clearly defined and not only accepted by both parties but celebrated. The act of paying for the femme is a show of chivalry. It is one of many ways a butch shows the femme she appreciates her. But that’s not necessarily a power play. Because that would presume that the femme has less power because she allowed someone to pay for her. Which any butch knows, femmes have plenty of power!!
The butch femme dynamic is a like a dance. You can’t just go around changing the choreography on a classic. Because if you do, it’s no longer the same classical ballet you went to see. Now it’s a modern dance by a new choreographer. Not bad, just different. We don’t go to a classical ballet and critique them on not being hip hop dancers!! If you want to see hip hop you go to a hip hop show. But when you buy your ticket to Swan Lake, you expect to see tutus and tights. You WANT to see tutus and tights!!
I feel like when people criticize butch/femme relationships, it’s like a tennis player trying to teach a dance class. Theyre not the same!!!! One isnt better then the other, they’re just different.
Elegy, liking something doesn’t translate to equality. One party can like having no power in a relationship. That doesn’t mean both parties have equal power. It means that they are in a consenting relationship of unequal power. To be clear, I am not suggesting by this example that femmes have no power in a butch-femme relationship, I am just illustrating a point.
Also, I was not referring to butch-femme relationships in general, as you suggest. I referred to the ‘pay no matter what attitude’ expressed by some. The preceding discussion shows that there is diversity of opinion among butches and femmes who are actually in butch-femme relationships. At one end of the continuum there are some butches who resent the expectation that they should pay all the time, to the middle ground of those who “don’t mind it”, to those who insist on paying no matter what. There is a similar range of opinion expressed above among femmes in these relationships. What I was questioning was the extreme ‘insist on paying no matter what’ attitude.
Raye, I get your point about not wanting to be protected or provided for, so you don’t want a femme paying for you. But how about using her own money to pay for herself, the things or experiences she wants that the butch can’t afford, or on your mutual home? How does she use her own earned disposable income or does she not have disposable income in these relationships because she is supported by and entirely reliant on her butch? I am not being sarcastic. I am genuinely in the dark because the only butch-femme relationships I have personal experience are among two high income earners where the butch does not always pay.
And to Sasha, I guess your views on money and power in relationships have changed over time, since your original post said:
‘I’ve always felt that whoever controls the money controls a lot more then just that. How does this translate between women? When one woman is always the one who pays for things, does she control a larger portion of the relationship? Is she paying for power over her lover? Or am I just over thinking this?”
While no butches above have said they are paying for power, a number of them have said the price tag for their chivalry is an expectation of repayment in the bedroom.
“Why, based on the premise that modern relationships are equal, would you assume that butch-femme relationships are not? Because of a who’s paying stipulation? Both the butch and femme want this to happen so in that matter they are equals.”
“Elegy, liking something doesn’t translate to equality. … It means that they are in a consenting relationship of unequal power.”
True- how would you relate that back to the bigger picture? The butch is paying and actively contributing to one area of their life- what dictates that the power balance is not made up in other areas? The original blog was about paying for meals during dates, and so have most of the responses been a reflection of that. So the question is about the attitude of always paying for meals, no matter what. I was not addressing any other aspects of someone’s hypothetical relationship.*
“Also, I was not referring to butch-femme relationships in general, as you suggest. I referred to the ‘pay no matter what attitude’ expressed by some ….What I was questioning was the extreme ‘insist on paying no matter what’ attitude.”
Your sentence refers to butch-femme relationships in general because in order to answer the question one has to acknowledge that you’re actually touching on a particular boundary, then specifically questioning one way in which the boundary is expressed (why some butches feel the need to pay for dates no matter what). While not all butches may feel the same way about who pays (one mode of expression), those boundaries are expressed in other forms. To you, it’s this form that makes the least amount of sense when financial distribution changes so that the femme has the most money and desires things out of the butch’s financial reach. Hypothetically, I already felt this relationship would just not work: “They may just be incompatible and should move on …. They’ll only end up feeling frustrated, invalidated and unheard unless and until someone concedes.”
” At one end of the continuum there are some butches who resent the expectation that they should pay all the time, to the middle ground of those who “don’t mind it”, to those who insist on paying no matter what. There is a similar range of opinion expressed above among femmes in these relationships.”
I’m aware of this, and in my original response I did bring it up, but I chose to take it out because the post seemed too long winded and off tangent from the original question (which is talking only about those butches who insist on paying for dates).
*Same goes for that. I did originally address it, but it seemed too broad a topic because we’re no longer discussing meals so much as rough breakdown of a hypothetical relationship.
” But how about using her own money to pay for herself, the things or experiences she wants that the butch can’t afford, or on your mutual home? How does she use her own earned disposable income or does she not have disposable income in these relationships because she is supported by and entirely reliant on her butch?”
In this same post Sasha did write about how their house expenses were split at the time (January 16th, or you can just keyword search “house”)- maybe that will shed some light on your question.
“While no butches above have said they are paying for power, a number of them have said the price tag for their chivalry is an expectation of repayment in the bedroom.”
I see boys (man-children) who feel the same way, haha. And femmes. And just people. It’s not even chivalry, it’s just the same old “I pay, you put out” dynamic; I think that’s grody; mainly because it’s laughable to frame it as the romanticized version of chivalry (disclaimer: not necessarily historical chivalry) people refer to.
Hi Kate,
You’re right. My views have changed over time. It’s so weird reading old blog posts that I wrote and I’m like, “What was I thinking!?” lol
I forget sometimes, that I’ve written something years ago and to me, I’ve evolved or progressed over time. But to a reader that might just be reading it for the first time, I’m still there for them. You know what I mean?
And so what I want to say is that my metaphor about the dance = traditional butch/femme …. 1st. I realize that it’s impossible to generalize and be accurate. But I used ” ” marks to sort of show the tongue in cheek aspect of how butch/femme are never going to be “traditional” because it’s a gay relationship. It’s outside of the hetero-normative spectrum and it’s not imitating straight relationships. If anything it’s rather subversive of them. Taking certain aspects and turning it on its head by the the mere fact that both parties are queer woman. But this is going to get into a whole other topic.
Basically, to each her own. Some butches don’t mind getting paid for. That’s fine, she just needs a femme that doesn’t mind paying. Lol. And when I first met Remi I made more money then her. But she still payed for everything. If she couldn’t afford it, we didn’t do it. Not because I wouldn’t pay, but she wouldn’t let me.
If I was a gold digger I would have stayed with one of the entertainment lawyers I used to date! Instead, we ate a lot of taco bell in the early months of our relationship. Luckily for me, her career took off and now she pays for everything because she has all the money!
As for sex in exchange for money. I know some people think like that. I’ve gone out with people like that. But not everyone is like that, when I used to date femmes and I payed I never expected anything in exchange for dinner, because that’s a dick head move. Also, Remi and some amazing butch friends I know, don’t expect anything either. They pay because it makes them feel good.
But I re-read Kate’s comment and it seems like I’m going way off topic. Her main issue seemed to be, what about when the butch is broke and still insists on paying, even if the femme makes more money? Well … Like I said, we just ate taco Bell and made out at the beach all the time.
Sea side nookie and a bean burrito: .99 cents
Butch/femme romance: priceless.
Sasha I LOVE your last comment. I rather resent the idea that someone would think butches pay for things with the expectation of sexual reciprocation. Yeah I saw a couple of douchebags make the comment on here but those are usually the ones who are trying to be like men and are insecure in their identity and roles. I am not that guy nor will I ever be. I consider any sexual attention I get from women as the distinct privilege that it is. It is a compliment and an honor to have a beautiful woman want to give herself to me. I would feel sick if I thought it was because she felt obligated because I bought her dinner.
As to the subject of a femme using her own income, personally I think that once I am in a relationship with a woman that leads to a long term commitment, we would pool our finances. What is mine is hers and vice versa.. no matter who makes more money we make decisions together how to spend it. Mostly it would go to paying bills and providing for our children. She would have as much if not more control over the bank account. I am a shitty money manager in all actuality and I would quite gladly hand the control of the checkbook/bills over to her if she is better at it. But when we go to dinner, I would still be the one holding the bank card and signing the bill because I don’t want even the appearance that I cannot provide for my wife. Sorry that is just how I am. Some butches may be ok with underachieving in a shit job and letting their women pay for them but if I can go to college and get a freakin career so can you. If you choose not to, then that is your business. I personally would feel like a loser if I made my partner support me. She should not have to work that hard and carry that burden in my eyes. I know the weight of that responsibility and I can’t bring myself to put it on her. But if for some reason I lost my job, I would not resent her for being there to pick up the slack. After all for better or worse, richer or poorer, and in sickness and in health means something to me.
Just to add something…I think it’s more about the relationship than the ‘role.’ When I dated guys I never paid for dinner or dates, when I dated women (other femmes) I never paid for dinner or dates, and now I’m in a long -term (femme/femme) relationship and I’ve never paid for dinner or dates either. I’m not ‘taken care of’ though – we split the bills on everything from groceries to electricity. I own my own car, etc…
It’s just whatever your attitude is. For me, I think if you want me to go out with you, you cover it. Otherwise, I could go out myself.
..and like Sasha said…it doesn’t have to be a 5 star restaurant….let’s just go out for a drink, and mexican! No biggie.
But yeah…I don’t even bring money when I leave the house.
Jul and I are on the same page there.
Thanks to all for your thoughtful comments and insights.
Is it a British thing that girls here split the bill? I mean completely in half. If I was on a first date I would never expect the other person to pay for me. I would be insistant on paying half even if they wanted to pay. Then it would be the same if we saw each other again. But then the dating scene is very different over here. You don’t really date. You go for a meal and then you’re kind of together really. (Stupid Britain) And from then you split everything.
But again with what some people have said, if they said to me ‘youre a femme, you don’t pay’ Id probably be quite outraged that my ‘label’ wasnt letting me pay, and would probably fling money at them anyway.
And you don’t really drive over here either, you get the romantic number nine bus
I’m under the impression that this is an American thing. There’s a reason we refer to splitting the bill as “going Dutch”- it wasn’t that common here not so long ago.
“And you don’t really drive over here either, you get the romantic number nine bus
”
Haha, I’d imagine it’s like that here in some cities. That, or you get a cab or bike/skateboard/etc.
In trying to understand where someone who insists on always paying is coming from, I’ve had to liken it to the closest similar situation I know: holding the door for my mother. I would always hold the door open for her because I not only felt it was the right thing to do, but I enjoyed doing it. Then one day, she decided it made her feel like she was getting old and couldn’t open her own door, so she wouldn’t walk through when I held it for her. We definitely had a struggle over this. Although I wasn’t holding the door because of my ego, I found I was completely embarrassed, even humiliated, when she would take the door and walk in behind me or worse, try to hold the door for me. I felt like I looked like a jerk, because what kind of daughter doesn’t hold the door for her mother?
I wonder if that is kind of what it feels like for you butches?
To Jul’s comment “For me, I think if you want me to go out with you, you cover it. Otherwise, I could go out myself.” that’s one I need a little more work wrapping my mind around. I don’t get it. Don’t you also value and want to go out with the other person?
Splitting the bill, alternating who pays etc. I think that’s fair. I love to over the top spoil someone, I’m just pointing out different ways. It’s about what works best for the couple as a team.
Yes the bus is ace. umm ace-ish. And skateboarding through London, although probably cool, you would definietly die. Either by being hit by the taxi you should have probably caught in the first place or by said bus.
maybe I need to get myself to America and get taken ‘out on a date,’ instead of been taken to ‘ the pub for a vodka and a packet of crisps.’
Kenda –
You asked about this comment: ““For me, I think if you want me to go out with you, you cover it. Otherwise, I could go out myself.”
I certainly value the other person…tremendously. My gf is the love of my life. It’s hard to explain, but my expectation has always been (first with guys, then girls…and I dated femmes like me) that they pay. I don’t bring money.
Saying that, I am generous in other monetary ways – gifts, etc.. and we do split the bills, I own my own car, etc..it’s just a thing for me. I am quite independent, and have always lived on my own, paid for my own apts, etc..so it’s not like I’m looking for someone to ‘take care of me.’
I just never grew up thinking I should pay for someone to go out with me…and I still hold to that. It just feels ‘right’ for me somehow. It isn’t logical, but, it works for me…and us as a couple.
If it’s a big deal to pay for me to go out with you, to me, that’s very off-putting. You can’t open your wallet? It seems such a small thing to do that shows consideration. I don’t even pretend I’m going to pay. As I’ve said before, it doesn’t have to be expensive – it could be ‘dollar taco day.’ It’s not about having a lot of money, it’s about a genuine wish for the other person to be romanced a bit…I just show it in other ways outside of a date. Maybe an item I saw them secretly wishing for.
Jul, I COULD NOT AGREE MORE!!!!!
Just ditto on your entire comment.
And a little side note: when I dated boys they ALWAYS paid, it was expected. Societal I suppose. But even then, I had girlfriends that would pay or go dutch with their boyfriends, and I was always shocked that they would put up with that!!! I mean really, if a man is going to ask you out, HE IS SUPPOSED TO PAY. Period.
Even now, I have some straight girlfriends that pay their own way and I think that’s basically them paying the dude to fuck them. If you’re not worth them paying for you, (like Jul and I have said many times it doesn’t have to be a $300 dinner, inexpensive or home cooking works too) but if you’re not worth that to them, then WHY ARE YOU WITH THEM?
I hate to say this, because I feel like it’s going to start a shit storm, but I’ve never been one to be PC. Has anyone thought about how self-esteem plays into this?
If a femme doesn’t feel like she’s worth someone paying for dinner or whatever, then maybe the problem is more about her self-esteem and the people that low self esteem attracts?
Yea. I said it.
Oh also, about “You asked about this comment: ““For me, I think if you want me to go out with you, you cover it. Otherwise, I could go out myself.” —– EXACTLY.
If you want to go Dutch because one of you is either a) cheap or b) broke that’s fine. But then don’t get into a serious relationship. Just be friends with benefits. Because once you start that whole, you pay your own way thing, it’s basically impossible to ever change that in a relationship once the standard has been set so low.
Sasha –
Totally agreed, and I love that you just put it out there – we’re on exactly the same page on this one!
…let the comments begin…
I don’t consider it that complicated; I prefer the “you ask, you pay” model. I don’t generally pay when I’m with my guy (and some gal) friends, but if I decide I want to that is respected without consequence.
I know this blog is operating on femmes and butches, but it’s also not even that complex or intricate. It’s just two people who need to figure out how they want their relationship to function- as illustrated by Jul, there are femmes out there who not only don’t mind paying, but may even prefer it- and I’m sure there are butches who prefer to be paid for, or at least don’t mind being paid for. And then there are those who don’t view it as anything special, and just pay when they can, or every time.
There are those women who don’t want to feel as if they’re being bought or cheapened in some way, and so won’t allow someone to pay for them in the beginning of a relationship. And then there are those people who just don’t feel the need at all. That doesn’t mean that the rest of the relationship is skewed in a “my SO never pays for me for anything”- we just explained that just because a butch would buy a femme’s dinner doesn’t mean the femme never pays for anything else. I think people need to be honest with themselves and their motives, and express that to their dates and the people in their life. Then find people who suit their needs.
Easier said than done, haha!
I think it’s super simple. Whoever asked the other one out is supposed to pay.
I think it’s just that in most cases, the more butch ones generally ask out the more femme ones and that makes people think femmes don’t pay.
If a femme girl asked me out, I wouldn’t think that I’d have to pay. I’d consider it odd if they expected it of me. I’d be fine with splitting it though, just because I’ve always felt weird with people paying for me.
Crystal, I think you’ve hit on It, it’s almost too simple. It very true.
… Except, when a femme had asked me out in the past I still paid!!! :/ but that goes to me feeling like because I was the taller of two femmes, I Had to pay. But that’s a whole other story. Lol.
Elegy –
You said it brilliantly. I think that’s it exactly.
I find myself a little agitated by these comments saying that attractive femmes don’t pay, the ugly ones do.
Excuse me, I am an independent and attractive femme. If the date is mutual, I WILL pay for it. The only way that I will not reach for that ticket is if it was implied that she wants to take care of it.
I don’t need anyone to take care of me. That doesn’t make me ugly.
I am a dominant female in my work place, and my career field. I am dominant in every aspect of my life, save for what happens in bed. THAT is the only time I will relinquish control.
It pisses me off when wait staff hands my girlfriend the check, automatically assuming that se will be paying, but I suppose that’s somewhat of a societal norm. We do not fit within the realms of such, but others will fit us in as much as possible in order to normalize us.
I looked back and couldn’t find the originating comment for the ugly/attractive femme thread. Good. Anyway, considering attractiveness is subjective anyway, I don’t think it matters. Someone you may think is hot as hell I may wrinkle my nose at and not see it at all. So date who you like, find attractive who you like and let’s get back to the discussion at hand.
I’m weird about people paying for me. When I dated dudes, it was so obvious that there was a correlation between dinner and bed and it made me feel like a whore. But what was my price? If I was a whore in their eyes, should I demand more? Hey, buy me a Chanel purse and THEN I’ll sleep with you? If I put out after a dinner, did that make me a cheap whore? And was there a correlation between costs and amount of putting out? Cheap dinner = blowjob. Expensive dinner means the whole shebang (literally). Ugh. The dinner date became something I loathed for obvious reasons. I still am most comfortable on a date that is not about dinner. A walk in the park, going to see a photography exhibit will get me more than a dinner.
I guess for straight women, they didn’t mind that? I don’t know. Considering they actually were considering dating a guy and having feelings for him, then maybe it wasn’t a bad thing? Again, I don’t know. I never had feelings for guys, so it really started to feel like a transaction (and I was getting the, ahem, short end of the stick).
When a guy and I would go out just as friends (in my mind), if he insisted on paying, I knew that was the signal he was trying to throw that he liked me as more than a friend (and the signal that meant I’d have to have a discussion as to why this was NOT a date, which before I came out, was super difficult as I didn’t have the words to explain it. Ugh).
As a result, even though I’m far from rolling in it, I have a knee jerk reaction to when women want to pay for me. I don’t like presents much (unless we’re friends or we’ve been together for awhile or it’s something that either doesn’t cost much or is so obviously related to me personally that it doesn’t feel like a generic Grand Gesture of Romance).
As I’ve come out and been more and more comfortable with being out, I’m learning to let a woman do something nice for me without feeling like it creates an obligation to her. The idea that a woman wants to pay for me simply because she wants to get to know me and do something nice for me without expecting anything beyond that is one I’m still trying to wrap my head around. I’m not sure I ever really will, because money is still a source of power and control no matter the genders involved.
Jessica –
I didn’t see the post about ‘ugly or unattractive lesbians’ paying…could you point me to that?
I think you completely missed the point.
WWG –
I am sorry for your dating experiences. When I dated guys, I never paid, and I didn’t necessarily put out. I didn’t feel that pressure. I own my own body, and if they were asking me out, it’s because maybe they wanted to get in my pants at some point…but that’s kind of common in dating anyway..and usually the feeling is mutual. The dinner didn’t make me feel any obligation. I ordered what I wanted, and I often just walked if not interested. Dating girls was the same.
Sounds like you dated jerks….and they come in both genders, for sure. You deserved better…as does any other woman who finds herself in that situation…but to be honest, if they would pressure you for sex over a meal, chances are they’d pressure you without paying for one too. Just my take.
Jul – Well one is 12 comments down from the top. I had to go back and look after Jessica mentioned it on FB.
A Femme: “Hot femmes don’t pay. Ugly ones usually do.”
Don’t know if there are more …. But that was just rude. I’ve been having this convo on Facebook this morning, but want to put it on here too that to me, that only thing that can ever make a femme or butch or any woman ugly is their attitude. Not their physical features. And I’m not just saying that, I mean it!! I think ugly is a harsh term that never be sued to describe someone physically.
I saw that comment when I looked through this last night. Here it is:
A Femme
January 14, 2009 at 9:38 pm
Hot femmes don’t pay. Ugly ones usually do.
Oh and just in case Jessica was thinking my comment about self-esteem was at all related to looks, it was not. I was referring to women that ideally, in their heads, would feel most comfortable in a relationship in which they were taken care of, yet don’t feel like they deserve it, so they put themselves in a financial strain just to be with someone that won’t pay or help out.
This has nothing to do with beauty, in fact, most of the girls I’ve known that fall in that category were beautiful, they just didn’t know it.
And I don’t think it’s nice if women that want to pay, femmes that want/like/choose to pay, try to relegate our relationships, in which we don’t pay to some form of “trying to fit in” to some hetero-normative frame work.
Just like I respect a powerful woman who wants to pay her own way. It doesn’t make a woman that has a wife or girlfriend that does all the paying, any less powerful. It’s just a different dynamic. And isn’t that what the LGBT community is all about? Allowing ourselves and others to be who they want to be?
Sasha –
Thanks for pointing out that comment – I completely missed it. Either way, it wasn’t in any way associated with what I was saying. I think beauty is completely someone’s opinion. Paying has nothing to do with looks, it has to do with expectation for yourself.
I expect not to pay…so I don’t. I don’t even bring money, so it’s not even a discussion. If others expect to pay, or expect to split the bill, then they get what they expect also.
It’s pretty simple and I think it applies to a lot of areas in life.
@Jul – It’s possible I did date some jerks. Not all of them, but definitely a few. Granted, those never lasted more than one date, two at the most. The feeling of obligation and whorishness came more towards the end of my dating dudes, as I got more and more ready to come out I guess.
But still, considering I never really wanted to date men anyway (which I realized when I came out), it didn’t matter if they were nice or jerks – I felt obligated anyway because I couldn’t repay them with genuine affection and appreciation. Perhaps that’s the part of the equation that was missing the most and is the center of this whole debate?
I love paying for all the femmes I’ve dated, even if we never went to bed it was my pleasure. The fact that they blessed my dinner with their beauty was enough to make me wanna take them out again & again. This behavior on my part always eventually lead to incredible sex!
^Probably because that perspective is so adorable.
@Sunny – I sooo agree with Elegy. I’m pleased to read that butches don’t mind paying for, and even like paying for us. It makes me feel better and not like I’m taking advantage of someone if you do pay for us. Thank you.
Jul & Sasha, thank you both for taking the time to explain, because I really was perplexed. The two of you present two different angles, as I see it. What I didn’t understand about Jul’s was that it’s femme-femme, so why wouldn’t both pay or alternate paying? But if I’m understanding her correctly, it’s more about one person who naturally wants to be romanced and one who naturally wants to do the romancing, therefore the two fit, and there’s no reason to switch off. With Sasha, same thing, except that the one doing the romancing is prescribed more by what role they fall into based on male or butch (except in the case of the tallest one pays – that cracked me up!).
As far as the self esteem issue, when I was dating guys, I paid my own way as much as I could because I didn’t want to feel in debt to any of them – it had nothing to do with self esteem. Now, however, if a woman wanted to treat me? No problem. I’m sure that for some women, paying their own way may be a self esteem issue, but for others, for whatever reason, the idea that somebody else might actually enjoy paying, and the idea that they wouldn’t then be indebted to that person, never occurred to them. Or maybe they’ve had to carry their own weight and had a lot expected of them, so they never had “permission” to be the recipient. I think sometimes people need permission – or need to see that it’s okay to give themselves permission and step out of the experiences they were raised with, if that makes sense. So who knows if someone might read what you wrote and they get the idea that it’s okay to explore this, and happily discover a new side of themselves? And that what they at first took offense at now seems rather sweet?
WWG – I can relate to everything you wrote. And it never occurred to me that the reason I wasn’t comfortable with guys paying was because I knew, on some level, that I couldn’t really reciprocate their affection (the way most girls would want to). So it would kind of feel like leading him on, even if sex was involved. Ok, there’s another flag. Why didn’t I see it sooner?
Kenda –
I think we’re on the same page now…I think you were right on a few counts for me, and off on one…
- You’re right that for me, I never felt indebted by not paying…with guys or girls, I never felt pressure to put out, or that I owed them anything more than my company on the date we were having.
- I think it’s on-target that regardless of femme/femme or butch/femme relationships, everyone has their own dynamic that works for them…things they like or expect. When those mesh well together, you have a great relationship.
..but….you mentioned that “maybe they’ve had to carry their own weight and had a lot expected of them, so they never had “permission” to be the recipient.” That might be true for some, but I want to make clear that I have always carried my own weight, and still do. We still split the expenses of bills, etc.. it’s just a ‘going out’ thing for me. I think it makes me appreciate the times of being pampered all the more.
Just for the sake of a question…I mentioned that I think it’s just “whatever works for the couple” …but because my gf is a femme and pays with another femme…do people have relationships where the femme ‘always’ pays in a butch/femme relationship or does that violate some sacred rule?
This is an old post, but a few commenters near the top pissed me off and I want to say something. Maybe someone else already said the same thing, but I don’t think this point is brought up enough, so I’m going to go ahead anyway.
These comments pissed me off:
- SheKnowsMe calling Sasha “worth the price of admission”
- Carrie calling femmes “little girls” and “helpless”
- Nvr2Butch saying, “It all works out in the end sweetie, just sit back and look pretty. That’s your job. We’re ok with it. you should be too.”
- And the worst part, in my opinion, was ButchDaddi saying, “It’s perfectly fine that a femme doesn’t expect to pay. But she should expect to put out later in the night.”
A woman is NEVER obligated to have sex with anybody. The dinner bill is not the “price of admission” into her pants, skirt, dress, or otherwise. I identify as butch and really don’t want to be associated with misogynistic assholes. God damn. I’m sorry you had to deal with so many people being jerks here, Sasha. You’d think that since the lesbian community is known for its feminism, these kinds of attitudes wouldn’t come out (no pun intended) at all.
Our culture equates femininity with weakness, and I firmly believe that any butch or masculine-of-center female-bodied person who talks shit about femmes is just afraid of any femininity that may be lurking within themselves. Femmes aren’t weak because of their femininity; there are many ways to be strong that we just aren’t trained to recognize. Femmes are also adults who deserve respect, and they are never obligated to have sex with us just because we paid for a meal. Sex is not transactional, and femmes/women are not candy machines that people put kindness into until sexual favors come out. And what fun is sex if your partner’s doing it because they feel obligated to and not because they think you’re attractive? I would feel like shit if a woman had sex with me because I made her feel like saying no wasn’t “allowed.”
TL;DR: Femmes deserve basic respect just like anybody else. Damn.
Hahaha this makes no sense.
“the price of admission” is not counted in money. femmes (should) look good only for their own confidence.
“helpless”? since when vulnerability and strength have to do with looks? i thought our abilities are sth within us.
They say I am a femme myself, but labels are weird. I don’t expect dating a butch, nor a femme or somebody who’s older than me, to pay for my meal or cinema pass. Actually even trying to do so is irritating, it puts me in the mood that I am somebody’s dog or sth. It totally sets boundaries between us. That’s a reply to Nvr2Butch, because, no I’m not OK with it (being treated like a pretty barbie doll) and I don’t care if “you” guys are. One of the most beautiful things in a homosexual relationship is that we don’t have to set rules according to gender stereotypes, we are equals; and it’s the same when it comes to bed. No one has to use their hands only to straighten their hair.
Indeed femme girls who act like they are the queens of the world do exist. They feel that being pretty and femimine means that they have no other obligations. Well that’s almost as ridicolous as being said by a butch.
So my conclusion. Pay the meal for those who only have beauty and nothing inside, that’s OK. But when somebody happens to be worth of respect, don’t treat her like she belongs to the first group.